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1613 [1551]

Queene Mary. Disputation in the Conuocation house about the reall presence.

Marginalia1553.that lyueth, among the dead. Lykewise the Scripture testifieth that Christ is rysen, ascended into heauen, and sitteth on the right hand of the father: all the which is spoken of hys naturall body: Ergo, it is not on earth included in the Sacrament. MarginaliaArgument of Maister Philpot.

I will confirme this yet more effectually by the saying of Christ, in the MarginaliaIohn. 16.16. of S. Iohn. I came (sayth Christ) from my father into the vvorld, and novv I leaue the vvorld and go avvay to my father. The which commyng and goyng he ment of his naturall body. Therefore we may affirme therby, that it is not now in the world.

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But I looke here (quoth he) to be aunswered with a MarginaliaThe blinde distinction of the Papists. Visibly. Inuisibly.blynd distinctiō of visibly and inuisibly, that he is visibly departed in his humanitie, but inuisibly hee remayneth notwithstandyng in the Sacrament. But that aunswere I preuent my selfe, that with more expedition I may descende to the pyth of myne Argumentes, wherof I haue a dosen to propose, and will proue that no such distinctiō may take away the force of that Argument, by the aunswere which Christes Disciples gaue vnto him speaking these wordes: Novv thou speakest playnly and vtterest forth no Prouerbe. Which wordes S. Ciryll interpretyng, sayth: MarginaliaCyrillus. That Christ spake vvithout any maner of ambiguitie or obscure speach. And therefore I conclude hereby thus, that if Christ spake playnly and without parable, saying: I leaue the vvorld novv and goe avvay to my father, then that obscure, darke, & imperceptible presence of Christes naturall body to remayne in the Sacrament vppon earth inuisibly, contrary to the playne wordes of Christ, ought not to be allowed: For nothyng can be more vncerteyne, or more parabolicall and vnsensible, then so to saye. Here now will I attende what ye will aunswere, and so descende to the confirmation of all that I haue sayd by auncient wryters.

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MarginaliaChadseyes answere to Philpot.Then D. Chedsey recityng hys Argumēt in such order as it was made, tooke vpō him to aunswere seuerally to euery part therof on this wyse. First to the saying of the Aūgel, that Christ is not here: And vvhy seeke ye the liuing amōg the dead? he aunswered that these sayinges perteined nothyng to the presēce of Christes naturall body in the Sacrament, but that they were spoken of Christes body beyng in the sepulchre when the iij. Maryes thought hym to haue bene in the graue still. And therfore the aungell sayd: VVhy do ye seeke hym that lyueth among the dead? And to the authority of the 16. of Iohn where Christ sayth: Novv I leaue the vvorld and go to my father: he ment that of hys Ascension. And so lykewyse did Cyrill, interpretyng the saying of þe Disciples that knew playnly that Christ would visibly ascende into heauen, but that doth not exclude the inuisible presence of his naturall body in the Sacrament. For MarginaliaChrysost. ad populū Antioch. S. Chrysostome writyng to the people of Antioch doth affirme the same, cōparyng Helyas and Christ together, and Helyas cloke vnto Christes flesh. Helyas (quoth he) vvhen hee vvas taken vp in the fiery chariot, left hys cloke behynd hym vnto hys Disciple Helysæus. But Christ ascēdyng into heauen tooke hys flesh vvith hym, and left also his flesh behind hym. Whereby we may right well gather that Christes flesh is visibly ascended into heauen and inuisibly abydeth still in the Sacrament of the aultar.

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MarginaliaPhilpot replyeth to Chadsey.To this Philpot replyed and sayd, you haue not directly aunswered to the saying of the Aungell: Christ is risen & is not here, because you haue omitted that which was the chiefest point of all. 

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Foxe altered the passage: 'To this answer, Fyllpot replyed, and sayd that he inforced not his argument upon the saying of the angell, (Christ is rysen and not here), but toke his beginnyng therby to procede as is before is rehearsed: so that process wherof yow have not thorowli answered' (Trew report, sig. C5r-v; 1563, p. 911) to read 'To this Philpot replied and sayd, you have not directly aunswered to the saying of the Aungell: Christ is risen and is not here, because you have omitted that which was the chiefest point of all' (1570, p. 1575; 1576, p. 1343; and 1583, p. 1414). Foxe's emendations concealed Philpot's damaging admission that the Scriptural passage he quoted did not support his argument.

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For (said he) I proceded further, as thus: he is rysen, ascended, & sitteth at the right hand of God the father: Ergo, he is not remainyng on þe earth. Neither is your aunswere to Cyrill, by me alledged, sufficient. But by and by I will returne to your interpretatiō of Cyrill and more playnly declare the same, after that I haue fyrst refelled the authoritye of Chrisostome, which is one of your chief principles that you alledged to make for your grosse carnal presence in the Sacrament. Which beyng well weyed and vnderstāded, perteyneth nothyng thereunto.

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At that the Prolocutor startled that one of the chief pyllers in this poynt should be ouerthrowen, and therfore recyted the sayd authority in Latine fyrst, and afterward Englished the same, willyng all that were present to note that saying of Chrisostome, which he thought inuincible on their syde. But I shal make it appeare, quoth Philpot, by and by, to make litle for your purpose. And as he was about to declare hys mynde in that behalfe, MarginaliaPhilpot agayn interrupted by the Prolocutor. the Prolocutor dyd interrupt hym as he dyd almost continually. Wherwith Philpot not beyng contēt, sayd: Maister Prolocutor thynketh that he is in a Sophistry schole where he knoweth right well the maner is that whē the

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Respōdent perceyueth that he is lyke to be inforced with an Argumēt to the which he is not able to aūswere, then he doth what he can with cauillatiō and interruption to dryue hym from the same. This saying of Philpot was ill taken of the Prolocutor and hys adherētes: and the Prolocutor sayd that Philpot could bryng nothyng to auoyde that authority but hys owne vayne imagination. Heare, quoth Philpot, and afterward iudge. For I will do in this as in all other authorities wherewith you shall charge me in refellyng any of my Argumentes that I haue to prosecute, aunsweryng eyther vnto the same by sufficient authorities of Scripture, or els by some other testimonie of like authority to yours, & not of myne own imagination: the which if I do, I will it to be of no credite. And concernyng the saying of Chrisostome I haue two wayes to beate hym from your purpose, the one out of Scripture, the other of Chrisostome hym selfe, in the place here by you alledged.

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MarginaliaThe place of Chrysostome of Christ takyng vp hys fleshe and leauing hys flesh answered to by Philpot.First, where hee semeth to say that Christ ascendyng, tooke hys flesh with hym, and left also his flesh behynde hym, truth it is: for we all do confesse & beleue that Christ tooke on him our humane nature in the virgin Maryes wombe, and through his Passion in the same hath vnited vs to hys flesh, and therby are we become one fleshe with hym, so that Chrysostome myght therfore right well say, that Christ ascendyng tooke his flesh which he receiued of the virgyn Mary, away with hym: and also left his flesh behynd hym, MarginaliaHow Christ left hys flesh behinde hym.which are we that be hys elect in this world, which are the members of Christ, and flesh of his flesh: as very aptly S. Paul to the Ephesians in the 5. chap. doth testifie saying: MarginaliaEphes. 5. VVe are flesh of his flesh, and bones of hys bones. And if percase any man wil reply, that he entreateth there of the Sacrament, so that this intrepretation can not so aptly be applyed vnto hym in that place, then will I yet interprete Chrisostome an other way by hym selfe. MarginaliaChrysostome expounded by Chrysostome.For in that place a few lynes before those wordes which were here no rather read, are these woordes: that Christ after he ascended into heauen, left vnto vs indued with hys Sacramentes, his flesh in mysteries, that is, sacramentally. And that mystical flesh Christ leaueth as well to hys Church in the Sacrament of Baptisme, as in the Sacramental bread and wyne. And that S. Paul iustly doth witnesse, saying: MarginaliaGal. 3. As many of vs as are Baptised in Christ, haue put vpon vs Christ. And thus you may vnderstand that S. Chrisostome maketh nothyng for your carnal and grosse presence in the Sacrament, as you wrōgfully take hym.

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Now in this meane while M. Pye rounded the Prolocutor in the eare to put Philpot to silence and to appoynt some other, mistrustyng lest hee would shrodely shake theyr carnall presence in conclusion, if he held on long, seyng in the begynnyng he gaue one of their chief foundations such a plucke. Then MarginaliaWeston. the Prolocutor sayd to Philpot, that he had reasoned sufficiently inough, & that some other should now supply his rowme. Wherwith he was not well content, saying: Why Syr, I haue a dosen Argumentes concernyng this matter to be proposed, and I haue not yet scarse ouergone my first Argument: for I haue not brought in any confirmation therof out of any auncient writer (wherof I haue for the same purpose many) beyng hitherto still letted by your ofte interruptyng of me.

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Well, quoth the Prolocutor, you shall speake no more now, and I commaund you to hold your peace. You perceyue, quoth Philpot, that I haue stuffe inough for you, & am able to withstand your false supposition, and therfore you commaund me to silence. MarginaliaA good solutiō for all hys argumentes.If you wil not geue place, quoth the Prolocutor, I will send you to prison. This is not, quoth Philpot, accordyng to your promise made in this house, nor yet accordyng to your bragge made at Paules Crosse, that men should be aūswered in this disputation, to what soeuer they can say, since you will not suffer me of a dosen Argumentes to prosecute one.

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Then M. Pye toke vpon him to promise that he should be aunswered an other day. Philpot seyng he might not procede in hys purpose, beyng therewith iustly offended, ended, saying thus: A sorte of you here, which hetherto haue lurked in corners and dissembled with God and the worlde, are now gathered together to suppresse the sincere truth of Gods holy word, and to set forth euery false deuise, which by the Catholicke doctrine of the Scripture ye are not able to mainteyne.

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MarginaliaM. Elmar agayne steppeth forth.Then stepped forth M. Elmar Chaplein to the Duke of Suffolke: whom M. Moreman tooke vppon hym to aunswere. Agaynst whom M. Elmar obiected diuers and sondry authorities for the confirmyng of the Argument hee

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