Critical Apparatus for this Page
Latin/Greek TranslationsCommentary on the Text
Names and Places on this Page
Unavailable for this Edition
1628 [1566]

Quene Mary. Talke betwen B. Ridley & Secretary Bourne, & others, touching the Sacramēt.

MarginaliaAn. 1554. March.controuersie and the vsurpyng of the Sea of Rome, do all agree, if they be well vnderstanded in this truth.

I am glad to heare, sayd Maister Secretary, that ye do so well esteme the Doctours of the Church.

MarginaliaVniuersalitie hath a double vnderstanding.Now as for vniuersalitie, it may haue ij. meaninges: one to vnderstād that to be Vniuersall which from the begynnyng in all ages hath bene allowed: an other, to vnderstand vniuersalitie for the multitude of our age or of any other singular age.

No, ne, sayth Maister Secretary, these three do alwayes agree: & where there is one, there is all the rest: and here he and I chaūged many wordes. And finally, to be short in this matter, we did not agree.

There was none, quoth Maister Fecknam, before Berengarius, Wickleffe, & Hus, and now in our dayes Carolostadius, and Oecolampadius. And Carolostadius sayth, Christ pointeth to his owne body, and not the Sacrament, and sayd: Hoc est corpus meum. And Melancthon writeth to one Micronius, (Miconius sayd I) these or like wordes: MarginaliaMelancton. ad Myconiū.Nullā satis grauē rationē inuenire possum, propter quā a fide maiorū in hac materia dissentiam. i. 

Latin/Greek Translations  *  Close
Melancton. Ad Myconium (sic)
Foxe text citation

Nullam satis grauem rationem inuenire possum, propter quam a fide maiorum in hac materia dissentiam

[As in 1563]

Foxe text translation

I can finde no grounded reason to cause me to dissent from the beliefe of our foreelders.

Actual text of Melanchthon

[Unable to find Melanchthon in Migne.]

I can finde no grounded reason to cause me to dissent from the beliefe of our foreelders.

[Back to Top]

Thus when he had spoken at length, with many other wordes moe: MarginaliaThe doctrine of the Sacrament not new.Syr sayd I, it is certeine that other before these haue written of this matter, not by the way onely and obiter, as doth for the most all the old writers, but euen ex professo, & their whole bookes intreate of it alone, as Bertram.  

Commentary  *  Close

'Bertram' is Ratramnus of Corbie, a ninth-century theologian known, among other works, for his De Corpore et sanguine Domini, which emphasised the figurative nature of the elements of the Sacrament (1563, p. 929; 1570, p. 1590; 1576, p. 1357; 1583, p. 1427).

[Back to Top]

Bertram, said the Secretary? what man was he, and when was hee, 

Commentary  *  Close

In the first two editions, Bourne asks Ridley about Bertram: 'What man was he, and when was he?' (1563, p. 929; 1570, p. 1590). In the edition of 1576, this was mistakenly changed to 'What man was he and whom was he' (p. 1357); this was repeated in the next edition (1583, p. 1427).

and how do ye know? &c. with many questions.

Syr, quoth I, I haue read his booke: he proponeth the same which is now in controuersie, and aunswereth so directly that no man may doubt but that he affirmeth, that the substaunce of bread remaineth still in the Sacrament: and he wrote vnto Carolus Magnus.

Mary (quoth he) marke, for there is a matter. He wrote, quoth he, ad Henricum, and not ad Carolum, for no author maketh any such mention of Bertramus.

Yes, quoth I, Trithemius in Catalogo illustrium scriptorum speaketh of him. Trithemius was but of late tyme: but he speaketh, quoth I, of them that were of antiquitie. Here, after much talke of Bertrā what authors haue ye, quoth Maister Secretary, to make of the Sacrament a figure?

MarginaliaDoctors that make the Sacrament to be a figure.Syr quoth I, ye know (I thinke) that MarginaliaTertullianus.Tertullian in playne wordes speaketh thus: Hoc est corpus, id est figura corporis mei. i. 

Latin/Greek Translations  *  Close
Tertullian
Foxe text citation

Hoc est corpus, id est figura corporis mei.

[As in 1563]

Foxe text translation

This is my body, that is to say, a figure of my body.

Actual text of Tertullian Adversus Marcionem, CAP. XL (Migne, P.L. Vol. 002, Col. 0459)

acceptum panem, et distributum discipulis, corpus illum suum fecit, Hoc est corpus meum dicendo Id est, figura corporis mei.

[Accurate identification, apart from the omission ofmeum dicendo.]

This is my body, that is to say, a figure of my body. And MarginaliaGelasius.Gelasius sayth playnly that Substantia panis manet. i. 
Latin/Greek Translations  *  Close
Gelasius
Foxe text citation

Substantia panis manet

[As in 1563]

Foxe text translation

The substance of bread remayneth.

Actual text of Gelasius

[Unable to locate in Migne (is it Gelasius I?)]

The substance of bread remayneth. And MarginaliaOrigen.Origene saith likewise: Quod sanctificatur secundum materiam, ingreditur stomachum & vadit in fecessum. i. 
Latin/Greek Translations  *  Close
Origen
Foxe text citation

Quod sanctificatur secundum materiam, ingreditur stomachum & vadit in secessum.

Foxe text translation

That which is sanctified, as touchyng the matter or substaunce, passeth away into the draught.

[ingreditur stomachum ('enters the stomach') does not appear in the English translation above.]

Actual text of Origen

[Cannot trace in Migne or TLG.]

That which is sanctified, as touchyng the matter or substaunce, passeth away into the draught. This when I had Englished, Maister Secretary sayd to me, you know very well as any man. &c. and here, if I would, I might haue bene set in a foolishe paradise of his commendation of my learnyng, and quòd essem vir multæ lectionis. i. A man of much reading.  
Commentary  *  Close

The English translations of passages from patristic fathers and from the Vulgate, which appear throughout this dialogue, were introduced in the 1570 edition.

But this I would not take at hys hand. He set me not vp so hye, but I brought my selfe as low agayne: and here was much adoe.

[Back to Top]

As for Melancthon (quoth I) whom Maister Fecknam spake of, I maruell that ye will alledge hym, for we are more nye an agreement here in England, then the opinion of Melancthon to you. For in this poynt we all agree here, that there is in the Sacrament but one material substaūce: and Melancthon (as I weene) sayth there are two.

[Back to Top]

Ye say truth, quod M. Secretary: Melancthons opinion is so. But I pray you: ye haue read, that the Sacrament was in olde tyme so reuerenced, that many were then forbidden to be present at the ministratiō therof? Catecumeni (quoth he) and many moe.

Truth Sir (quoth I) there were called some Audientes, some Pœnitentes, some MarginaliaCatechimeni and others went out at the ministration.Catechumeni, and some Energumeni, which were commaunded to depart.

Now (quoth he) then, and how can ye then make but a figure or a signe of the Sacramēt, as that booke which is set forth in my Lord of Canterburies name?  

Commentary  *  Close

It is not clear to which book of Cranmer's Bourne is referring. He may have been citing Justas Jonas's catechism (STC 5992.5), which was produced under Cranmer's auspices. But, given the context, it is more probably a reference to Cranmer's Defence of the true and catholike doctrine of the sacrament of the body and bloode of Christ (STC 6000).

[Back to Top]
MarginaliaThe booke of Catechisme. Iwisse ye cā tel who made it: did not ye make it? and here was much murmuryng of the rest, as though they would haue geuen me the glory of the writyng of the booke, which yet there was sayd of some there, to conteine most heynous heresie that euer was.

[Back to Top]

Maister Secretary, quoth I, that booke was made of a great learned man, and him which is able to doe the lyke agayne. As for me, I ensure you (be not deceaued in me) I was neuer able to do or write any such lyke thyng: he passeth me no lesse, then the learned Maister his young scholer.

Now, here euery man would haue his saying, which I passe ouer, not much materiall for to tell. But Syr, quoth I, me thinkes, it is not charitably done, to beare the people in hand, that any man doth so lightly esteme the Sacrament as to make of it but a figure. For that [but] maketh it a bare figure without any more profit: which that booke doth often deny, as appeareth to the reader most playnly.

[Back to Top]

Yes, quoth he, that they do.

Syr no, quoth I, of a truth. And as for me, I ensure you, I make no lesse of the Sacramēt then thus: I say that who soeuer receaueth the Sacrament, he receaueth therewith either lyfe or death.

No, quoth maister Secretary, scripture saith not so.

Syr, quoth I, although not in the same sounde of wordes, yet it doth in the same sense, and S. Augustine sayth in the sound of wordes also. For Paul sayth: The bread which we breake, is it not the partaking or fellowship of the body of Christ? and MarginaliaAugust.S. Augustine: māduca vitam, bibe vitam. i. 

Latin/Greek Translations  *  Close
St. Augustine, Sermones de Scripturis
Foxe text citation

manduca vitam, bibe vitam

Foxe text translation

Eate lyfe, drinke lyfe.

Actual text of St. Augustine, Sermones de Scripturis, Sermo CXXXI, De verbis Evangelii Joannis, cap. VI, 54-66 (Migne, P.L. Vol. 038, Col. 0729)

Illud bibere quid est, nisi vivere? Manduca vitam, bibe vitam: habebis vitam, et integra est vita.

[Accurate identification.]

Eate lyfe, drinke lyfe.Then sayd Maister Pope, what can ye make of it when ye say, there is not the real body of Christ? which I do beleue &c. and I pray God I may neuer beleue other. How can it bryng (as ye say) either lyfe or death, when Christes body is not there?

[Back to Top]

MarginaliaThe Sacrament may bryng lyfe without trāsubstantiatiō.Syr, quoth I, when ye heare Gods word truly preached, if ye do beleue it and abide in it, ye shall and do receaue life withall: and if ye do not beleue it, it doth bryng vnto you death: and yet Christes body is still in heauen and not carnall in euery preachers mouth.

[Back to Top]

I pray you tell me (quoth he) how can you aunswere to this: Quod pro vobis tradetur: Which shall bee geuen for you? was the figure of Christes body geuen for vs?

No Syr, quoth I, but the very body it selfe, wherof the Sacrament is a Sacramentall figure.

How say ye then, quoth he, to, Quod pro vobis tradetur: Which shall bee geuen for you?

Forsooth, quoth I, Tertullians exposition maketh it playne. For he sayth: MarginaliaTertullianus.Corpus est figura corporis. i. 

Latin/Greek Translations  *  Close
Tertullian
Foxe text citation

Corpus est figura corporis

[As in 1563]

Foxe text translation

The body is a figure of the body.

Actual text of Tertullian, Adversus Marcionem (Migne, P.L. Vol. 002, Col. 0459)

Professus itaque se concupiscentia concupisse edere Pascha ut suum [indignum enim ut quid alienum concupisceret Deus], acceptum panem, et distributum discipulis, corpus illum suum fecit, Hoc est corpus meum dicendo, Id est, figura corporis mei.

[Accurate identification, although it is not a direct quotation, but rather a reference.]

The body is a figure of the body. Now put to: Quod pro vobis tradetur: Which shall bee geuen for you, and it agreeth exceedyng well.

In fayth, quoth he, I would geue xl. pound, that ye were of a good opinion. For I ensure you I haue heard you, and had an affection to you.

I thanke you Maister Pope, for your hart and mind, and ye know, quoth I, I were a very foole if I would in this matter dissent from you, if that in my conscience the truth did not enforce me so to do. For Iwisse (as ye do perceaue, I trow) it is somewhat out of my way, if I would esteme worldly gayne.

[Back to Top]

What say ye, quoth he, to Cyprian? doth he not say playnly, MarginaliaCyprian.Panis quem dedit Dominus non effigie sed natura mutatus omnipotētia verbi factus est caro? i. The bread which the Lord dyd deliuer, being chaūged, not accordyng to the forme but accordyng to the nature therof, by the omnipotent worde is made flesh.  

Commentary  *  Close

The English translations of passages from patristic fathers and from the Vulgate, which appear throughout this dialogue, were introduced in the 1570 edition.

[Back to Top]
True
Go To Modern Page No:  
Click on this link to switch between the Modern pagination for this edition and Foxe's original pagination when searching for a page number. Note that the pagination displayed in the transcription is the modern pagination with Foxe's original pagination in square brackets.
Find:
Type a keyword and then restrict it to a particular edition using the dropdown menu. You can search for single words or phrases. When searching for single words, the search engine automatically imposes a wildcard at the end of the keyword in order to retrieve both whole and part words. For example, a search for "queen" will retrieve "queen", "queene" and "queenes" etc.
in:  
Humanities Research Institute  *  HRI Online  *  Feedback
Version 2.0 © 2011 The University of Sheffield