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1646 [1608]

Quene Mary. Disputation of Doct. Ridley Byshoy of London at Oxforde.

MarginaliaAn. 1554. Aprill.Smith. That which you haue spoken may suffyce at this present.

Rid. Let me alone I pray you, for I haue not much to say, behynde.

West. Goe foreward.

Marginalia4. doubt, in the worde really.Rid. Moereouer, there is ambiguitie in this word, really, whether it be to be taken as the Logicians terme it, transcendenter, that is, most generally (and so it may signify any maner of thyng which belongeth to the body of Christ, by any meanes: after which sort we also graunt Christes body to bee really in the the sacrament of the Lordes Supper, as in disputation, if occasion bee geuen shall be declared) or whether it be taken to signifye the very same thyng, hauing body, lyfe, and soule, which was assumed and taken of the worde of God, in to the vnity of person. In which sense, syth the body of Christ is really in heauen, because of the true maner of hys body, it may not be sayd to be here in the earth.

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Marginalia5. doubt, in the wordes of formes of bread and wine.There is yet a further doutfulnes in these wordes, vnder the formes of bread and wyne, whether the formes be there taken to signifie the onely accidentall and outwarde shewes of bread and wyne: or therewithall the substantiall natures thereof, which are to bee seene by their qualities, and perceyued by exteriour senses.

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MarginaliaThe proposition erroneous after the sense of the Romish Church.Now the errour and falsenes of the proposition, after the sense of the Romish church and scholemen, may hereby appeare, in that they affyrme the bread to bee transubstantiated and chaunged into the flesh, assumed of the word of God, and that (as they say) by the vertue of the word, which they haue deuysed by a certayne number of wordes, MarginaliaTransubstantiation not founded in Scripture.and cannot be found in none of the Euangelistes, nor in Paule, and so they gather that Christes body is really conteyned in the sacrament of the altare. Which position is grounded vpon the foundation of transubstantiation: which foundation is mōstrous, agaynst reason, and destroyeth the MarginaliaThe Analogie of the Sacramentes, is the similitude and likenes which they haue with the things they represent.Analogie or proportion of the sacramentes, and therefore thys proposition also, which is builded vppon thys rotten foundation, is false, erroneous, and to be counted as a detestable heresy of the Sacramentaries.

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West. We lose tyme.

Rid. You shall haue time inough.

West. Fal to reasoning. You shal haue some other day for this matter.

Rid. I haue no more to say concerning my explication. If you wyll geue me leaue and let me alone, I wyll but speake a word or two for my confirmation.

West. Go to: say on.

¶ The confirmation of the foresayd aunswere.

MarginaliaConfirmation of hys aunswere.
Argument.
Fes-

THere ought to be no doctrine established in the
church of God, whych dissenteth frō þe word of
God, from the rule of fayth, and draweth with it many
absurdities that cannot be auoyded:
ti-But thys doctrine of the first proposition is such.
no.
Ergo it ought not to be established & maintained
in the Church of God.

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The Maior or first part of my argument is playne, and the Minor or second part is proued thus.

Thys doctrine maintaineth a real, corporal, and carnall presence of Christes flesh, assumed and taken of the word, to be in the sacament of the Lords Supper, and that not by vertue and grace onely, but also by the whole essence & substance of the body & flesh of Christ:

MarginaliaThe Reall presence of Christes body disagreeth frō the Scriptures.But such a presence disagreeth from Gods worde, from the rule of fayth, and can not but drawe wyth it many absurdities:

Ergo the second part is true.

The first part of this argument is manifest, and the second may yet further be confirmed thus.

MarginaliaD. Weston agayne interrupteth Doct. Ridley.West. Thus you consume time, whych might be better bestowed on other matters. Maister Oponent, I pray you to your argumentes.

Smith. I wyll here reason wyth you vpon transubstantiation, whych you say is contrary to the rule and

Analogy of fayth. The contrary whereof I proue by the scriptures, and the Doctours. But before I enter argumentation wyth you, I demaund first whether in the sixt chapter of Iohn, there be any mention made of the sacrament, or of the reall presence of Christ in the Sacrament.

Rid. It is agaynst reason that I should be impeached to prosecute that which I haue to speake in this assembly, being not so long, but that it may be comprehended in few wordes.

West. Let hym reade on.

Marginalia7. inconueniences come of the reall presence.Rid. Fyrst of all, thys presence is contrary to many places of the holy scripture.

Secondly it varieth from the articles of the fayth.

Thyrdly it destroyeth and taketh away the institution of the Lordes supper.

Fourthly, it maketh precious thyngs cōmon to prophane and vngodly persons: for it casteth that whych is holy vnto Dogs, and pearles vnto Swyne.

Fiftly, it forceth men to maintain many monstrous miracles, wtout necessity and autority of Gods word.

Syxtly, it geueth occasion to the Heretickes whych erred concernyng the two natures in Christ, to defend theyr heresies thereby.

Seuenthly, it falsifieth the sayinges of the godly Fathers: it falsifieth also the catholike faith of the church, which the Apostels taught, the Martyrs confirmed, and the faythfull (as one of the Fathers sayth) do retaine and keepe vntyll thys day. Wherefore the second part of myne argument is true.

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¶ The probation of the antecedent or former part of this Argument by the partes therof.

MarginaliaThe 7. inconueniences declared by partes.
The first inconuenience.
The reall presence agaynst the Scripture.
THis carnall presence is cōtrary to the word of God, as appeareth, Iohn. 16. I tell you the truth. It is profitable for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the cōforter shall not come vnto you. Actes. 3. Whom the heauēs must receiue, vntill the tyme of restoryng of all thynges which God hath spoken. Math. 9. The childrē of the bridegrome cā not mourne so long as the bridegrome is with them: But now is the tyme of mourning. Iohn. 16. but I will see you agayn, & your hartes shall reioyce. Ioh. 14. I will come agayn & take you to my self. Math. 34. If they shall say vnto you, behold, here is Christ or there is Christ, beleue them not: for wheresoeuer the dead carkas is, thether the Eagles will resort.

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Marginalia2.
The reall presence agaynst the Articles of the fayth.
It varieth from the Articles of the fayth: He ascended into heauen, and sitteth on the right hand of God the father: from whence (and not from any other place, sayth Saint Augustine,) He shall come to iudge both the quicke and the dead.

Marginalia3.
It destroyeth the institution of the Lordes Supper.
It destroyeth and taketh away the institution of the Lordes supper, which was cōmaūded only to be vsed & cōtinued vntill the Lord him selfe should come. If therfore he bee now really present in the body of his flesh, then must the Supper ceasse: For a remembraunce is not of a thyng present, but of a thyng past and absent. And there is a difference betwene remembraunce and presence, and (as one of the fathers sayth) A figure is in vayne where the thyng figured is present.

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Marginalia
4.
It prophaneth thinges holy and precious, and gendreth absurdities.
It maketh precious thynges common to prophane and vngodly persons, and constrayneth men to cōfesse many absurdities. For it affirmeth that whoremōgers, and murtherers, yea and (as some of thē hold opinion) the wicked and faythles, myse, rattes, and dogges also may receyue the very reall & corporal body of the Lord, wherin the fulnes of the spirite of light and grace dwelleth: contrary to the manifest wordes of Christ in sixe places and sentences of the sixt chapter of S. Iohn.

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It confirmeth also and mainteyneth that beastly kynd of crueltie of the MarginaliaAnthropophagi, are a kinde of brutish people that feede of mās flesh.Anthropophagi, that is, the deuorers of mans flesh: for it is a more cruell thyng to deuoure a quicke man, then to slay him.

Pye. He requireth tyme to speake blasphemies. Leaue your blasphemyes. 

Commentary  *  Close

Foxe corrected what was an excessively verbose translation made in the 1563 edition (1563, p. 959) of Ridley's exchange with Pye and Weston (see 1570, pp. 1608-09; 1576, p. 1372; 1583, p. 1443).

Ryd. I had litle thought to haue had such reprochfull

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