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1661 [1623]

Queene Mary. Disputation of M. Latymer at Oxford. Hys protestation

Marginalia1554. Aprill.good for my Lordes and Maisters the Transubstantiators, to take heede, lest they conspire with the Nestorians: for I do not see how they can auoyd it.

MarginaliaAnswere to the thyrd Cōclusion.The third conclusion (as I do vnderstand it) seemeth subtelly to sow sedition agaynst the offring, which Christ himselfe offered for vs in his own proper person, according to that pithy place of Paule, MarginaliaHeb. 1. Heb. 1. when he sayth: that Christ his owne selfe hath made purgation of our sinnes: and afterwards: That he might (sayth he) bee a mercifull and a faythfull Bishop, concerning those thinges whych are to bee done wyth God, for the taking away of our sinnes. MarginaliaThe taking away of sinnes dependeth rather in the person of the offerer then in the thyng offered, but that he that was the offerer was offered him selfe. So that the expiation or taking away of our synnes, may be thought rather to depend on this: that Christ was an offering Byshop, thē that he was offred, were it not that he was offred of himself: & therfore it is needeles, that he should be offred of any other. I wil speake nothing of the wonderful presumptiō of man, to dare to attēpt this thing, without a manifest vocatiō, specially in that it tendeth to þe ouerthrowing & making fruitles (if not wholy, yet partly) of þe crosse of Christ: for truly it is no base or mean thing, to offer Christ. And therefore worthely a man may say to my Lordes & maisters the Offerers: 

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An obvious mistake occurs in the 1570 edition. Latimer is quoted as saying, 'And therefore worthely a man may say to my Lords and maysters Offerers' (i.e., the priests offering up the host) (1563, p. 979). In the edition of 1570, 'offerers' was changed to 'officers' (1570, p. 1623; 1576, p. 1384; 1583, p. 1455). Not only does the change not make sense, but the Rerum, which reads 'oblatoribus' (p. 687), indicates clearly what is meant.

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by what authority doe ye thys? and who gaue you this authoritie? Where? When? A man cā not (saith the Baptist) take any thing, except it be geuen hym from aboue: much lesse then may any man presume to vsurpe any honor, tofore he be therto called. Agayne: If any man synne (sayth saynt Iohn MarginaliaI. Iohn 2.) we haue (sayth he) not a Masser or Offerer at home, whych can sacrifice for vs at Masse: but we haue (saith he) an Aduocate Iesus Christ, whych once offered himselfe long agoe: of whych offering, the efficacie and effect is perdurable for euer, so that it is needeles to haue such Offerers.

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What meaneth Paule when he sayth: They that serue at the aultar, are partakers of the aultar: and so addeth: So the Lord hath ordayned, that they that preach the Gospell, shall lyue of the Gospell? Where as hee should rather haue sayd: The Lord hath ordeyned, that they that sacrifice at Masse, should lyue of theyr sacrificing, that there myght be a lyuing assigned to our Sacrificers nowe, as was before Christes comming, to the Iewish Priestes. For nowe they haue nothing to alledge for their liuing, as they that be Preachers haue. MarginaliaThe sacrificing priest hood chaūged into a preaching priesthood.So that it appeareth, that the sacrificyng Priesthoode is chaunged by Gods ordinaunce, into a preaching Priesthood, and the sacrificyng Priesthood should cease vtterly, sauing in as much as all Christen men are sacrificing priestes. MarginaliaThe final cause why the Lordes Supper was chiefly ordeyned.The Supper of the Lord was instituted to prouoke vs to thankes geuyng, for the offering whych the Lord himself dyd offer for vs, much rather then that our Offerers should doe there as they do. Feede (sayth Peter) as much as ye may, the flocke of Christ: nay rather let vs sacrifice as much as we may, for the flocke of Christ. MarginaliaSacrificing taketh away preaching.If so be the matter be as now men make it, I can neuer wonder inough, that Peter would or could forget this office of sacrificing, whych at this day is in such a price and estimation, that to feede is almost nothing wyth many. If thou cease from feeding the flocke, how shalt thou be taken? truly Catholyke ynough. But if thou cease from sacrificing and massing, how wil that be taken? at the least I warrant thee, thou shalt be called an Hereticke. And whence, I praye you, come these Papisticall iudgements? MarginaliaPreposterous iudgement of Papistes. Except perchaunce they thinke, a man feedeth the flock, in sacrifising for thē: and then what needeth there any learned Pastors? For no man is so foolish, but soone may he learne to sacrifice and Masse it.

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Thus loe, I haue taken the more payne to write, because I refused to dispute, in consideration of my debilitie thereunto: that all men may know, how that I haue so done not wythout great paines, hauing not any mā to helpe me, as I haue neuer before bene debarred to haue. O Syr, you may chaūce to liue tyll you come to thys age and weakenes that I am of. MarginaliaMaister Latimer found more audience with Kings & Princes, then with rusticall diuines.I haue spoken in my time before two Kinges, more then one, two, or three houres together, wythout interruption: but now (that I may speake the truth by your leaue) I could not be suffered to declare my mynde before you, no, not by the space of a quarter of an houre, wythout snatches, reuilynges, checks, rebukes, tauntes, such as I haue not felt the like, in such an audience, all my lyfe long. Surely it can not be, but an haynous offence that I haue geuē. But what was it? Forsooth I had spoken of the foure Marybones of the Masse. The whych kynde of speaking, I neuer read to be a synne agaynst the holy Ghost. I could not be allowed to shewe what I meant by my Metaphor: but Syr, now (by your fauour) I wyll tell your Mai-

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stershyp what I meant. MarginaliaThe 4. Maribones of the Masse by M. Latymer expounded.

The first is the Popish consecration: whych hath beene called a Gods body making.

The second is Transubstantiation.

The third is the Missall oblation.

The fourth, Adoration.

These chiefe and principall portions, partes, and poyntes belonging or incident to the Masse,and most esteemed and had in price in the same: I call the Marybones of the Masse, 

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Two other minor changes in the 1570 edition were deliberate. Foxe altered the word order of a sentence in Latimer's protestation, apparently to make it less stylistically awkward. In the first edition, the sentence reads: 'meaning by Marybones, the chief and principal portions ... and had in price the same' (1563, p. 980). In the later editions, this was changed to read: 'these cheefe and principal partes and poyntes ... I call þe marrowbones of the masse' (1570, p. 1623; 1576, p. 1385; 1583, p. 1455).

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which in deede you by force, myght, and violence, intrude in sounde of wordes in some of the Scripture, wyth racking and cramping, iniuryng and wronging the same: but els in deede, playne out of the Scripture, as I am throughly perswaded: although in disputation, I could now nothing do, to perswade the same to others, being both vnapt to studye, and also to make a shew of my former studye, in such readynes as should be requisite to the same. MarginaliaThe iudgemēt of Maister Latymer of D. Weston.I haue heard much talke of mayster D. Weston to and fro, in my tyme: but I neuer knew your parson to my knowledge, tyl I came before you, as the Queenes Maiesties Commissioner. I pray God send you so right iudgement, as I perceyue you haue a great wyt, great learning, wyth many other qualities. God geue you grace euer well to vse them, and euer to haue in remembraunce, that he that dwelleth on hygh, looketh on the low thinges on the earth: MarginaliaPride of D. Weston priuily touched.and that there is no counsell agaynst the Lorde: and also that thys world hath bene, and yet is a tottering world: And yet agayne, that though we must obey the Princes: yet, that hath this limitation, namely, in the Lord. MarginaliaObedience to princes hath hys limitation. For who so doth obey them agaynst the Lord, they be most pernicious to them, & the greatest aduersaries that they haue: for they so procure Gods vengeaunce vpon them, if God onely be the ruler of thinges.

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There be some so corrupt in mynde, the truth beyng taken from them, that they thynke gaynes to be godlynes: Great learned men, and yet men of no learnyng, but of rayling and ragyng about questions and strife of wordes. I call them men of no learnyng, because they know not Christ, how much els so euer they know. And on thys sort we are wont to call great learned Clarkes, beyng ignoraunt of Christ, vnlearned men: MarginaliaKnowledge without Christ is mere ignoraunce. for it is nothyng but playne ignoraunce, to know many thynges wythout Christ: wheras who so knoweth Christ, þe same hath knowledge inough, although in other knowledge he be to seeke. The Apostle saynt Paule confesseth of him selfe to the Corinthians, that he dyd know nothing, but Iesus Christ crucified. MarginaliaMany there be which vnder pretense of Christ, darken the glory of Christ. Many men bable many thinges of Christ, which yet knowe not Christ: but pretendng Christ, do craftely colour and darken his glory. Depart from such men, sayth the Apostle saint Paule to Timothe. It is not out of the way to remember what S. Augustine sayth. The place where, I well now remember not, except it be against the Epistles of Petilyan. MarginaliaAugustine. Whosoeuer (saith he) teacheth any thing necessarily to be beleued, whych is not contayned in the old or new Testament, the same is accursed. Oh beware of this curse, if you be wyse. I am much deceyued if MarginaliaBasilius. Basilius haue not such lyke wordes. Whatsoeuer (sayth he) is besides the holy scripture, if the same be taught as necessarily to beleued, that is sinne. Oh therefore take hede of this sin.

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There be some that speake many false thynges, more probable, and more lyke to the truth, then to the truth it selfe. Therefore Paule geueth a watch word: Let no man (sayth he) deceiue you wyth probabilitie and perswasions of words. But what meane you (sayth one) by this talke, so farre from the matter? Well, I hope good Maisters, you wyl suffer an old man, a litle to play the child, and to speake one thing twyse. Oh Lord God, MarginaliaThe absurdities of the Papistes opened in abusing the Lordes haue chaunged the most holy Communion, into a priuate action: and you deny to the Laity the Lordes cup, contrary to Christes commaūdement, and you doe blemish the annunciation of the Lordes death tyll he come: For you haue chaūged the common praier called the diuine seruice, with the administration of the Sacramentes, from the vulgar and knowen language, into a straunge toung, cōtrary to the wyll of the Lord reuealed in hys woord. God open the doore of your hart, to see the things you should see herein. I would as fayne obey my Soueraygne as any in thys Realme: but in these thynges I can neuer doe it wyth an vpryght conscience. God be mercyfull vnto vs. Amen.

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Weston. Then, refuse you to dispute? Wyll you here then subscribe?

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