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1667 [1629]

Queene Mary. Doct. Harpsfield disputeth for hys forme. The Archbishop opposeth.

Marginalia1554. Aprill.the Sacrament.

West. MarginaliaCyrillus.Cyrill sayth: Although he be absent from vs in body, yet are we gouerned by his spirite.

Harps. By these wordes he gaue vs a cherefulnes, to aspire vpwardes, seeking therehence our helpe. For as touching his conuersation, he is not so in the sacrament, as one meete to be lyued wythall. MarginaliaThe body of Christ is here to fede our bellies, but not to be liued withall. But let hym teach vs that hee is not there to feede vs: for after that sort he is there.

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West. You haue satisfied me wyth your aunsweres, in doing the same learnedly, and catholickly. But now to an other argument.

* Marginalia* The argument holdeth a proportione. Marginalia
The forme is thys:
As the natural body of Christ was absent from heauen whē it was here: so is it absent now frō hence when it is in heauen.
But the naturall body was thē absent from heauen, really and substātially:
Ergo, the naturall body of Christ is now absent from hence really.
Christ is now so absent from the earth by hys body, as he was absent from heauen when he liued here.

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But when he dyd lyue bodely on earth, the same naturall body was out of heauen:

Ergo now whilest hys naturall body is in heauen, it is not in earth.

Harps. I deny the Maior.

West. Fulgentius ad Transmundum regem Lib. 2, sayth: Secundum humanam substātiam absens erat cœlo, cum descendit de cœlo. These are Fulgentius wordes touching hys humaine substance. He was absent from heauen when he descended from heauen: and touching the same substance now he is in heauē, he is not on the earth: but concerning the diuine nature, he neuer forsooke, neyther heauen nor earth.

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☞ After these wordes, not wayting Harpsfieldes aunswere, he offered mayster Cranmer to dispute: who began in this wyse.

Cran. I haue heard you right learnedly and eloquētly entreate of the dignity of the scriptures, whych I do both commend, and haue marueiled thereat within my selfe. MarginaliaThe opiniō of Maister Harpsfield reproued, referring the sense of the Scriptures rather to the iudgement of the Church, then to the diligēt readyng and conferring of places.But where as you referre the true sense & iudgement of the scriptures to the catholick church as iudge therof, you are much deceiued, specially for that vnder the name of the Church you appoynt such Iudges as haue corruptly iudged, and contrary to the sense of the Scriptures. I wonder likewise why you attribute so litle to the diligent reading of the scriptures and conferryng of places, seing the scriptures doe so much commend the same, as well in diuers other places, as also in those which you your selfe haue already alledged. And as touching your opinion of these questions, it seemeth to me, neither to haue any ground of the word of God, nor of the primitiue Church. And to say the truth, the Schoolemen haue spoken diuersly of them, and doe not agree therein among them selues. Wherefore minding here briefly to shewe my iudgement also, I must desire you first to aunswere me to a few questions which I shall demaunde of you. Which being done, we shall the better proceede in our disputation. Moreouer, I must desire you to beare also with my rudenes in the Latine toung: which through long disuse is not now so prompt & ready with me, as it hath bene. And now all other thinges set apart, I mynde chiefly to haue regard to the truth. My first question is this: How Christes body is in the Sacrament, according to your mynde or determination?

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Then aunswered a Doctor: MarginaliaChrist present in the sacrament in substāce, but not after the maner of substance.he is there as touching his substance, but not after the maner of his substance.

Harps. He is there in such sort and maner, as he may be eaten.

Cran. My next question is: Whether hee hath hys quantitie, and qualities, forme, figure, and such like properties.

Harps. Are these your questions, sayd Maister Harpsfield? I may lykewyse aske you, when Christ passed through the Virgins wombe, an ruperit necne? Whē they had thus a whyle contended, there were diuers opinions in this matter.

MarginaliaThe Rabbines could not agree among thē selues.All the Doctors fell in a buszing, incertayne what to aunswere: some thought one way, some another, and thus maister Doctours could not agree.

Then Maister Cranmer sayd thus: you put of questions wyth questions, and not wyth aunswers. I aske

one thing of you, and you aunswere an other. Once agayne I aske: Whether hee haue those properties which he had on the earth? MarginaliaChristes body without hys properties in the sacrament.

Tresh. No, he hath not all the quantities and qualities belonging to a body.

Smith. Stay you maister Tresham. I wyll aunswere to you Maister Doctor, wyth the wordes of Damascene: Transformatur panis. &c. The bread is transformed. &c. But if thou wylt enquire how, modus impossibilis, the maner is impoßible.

MarginaliaThe Doctors in a doubt.Then two or three other added their aunsweres to this question, somwhat doubtfully. A great hurly burly was among them: some affirming one thing, and some an other.

Cran. Doe you appoynt mee a body, and can not tell what maner of body? Either he hath not hys quantitie, or els you are ignorant how to aunswere it.

Harps. These are vayne questions, and it is not mete to spend the tyme on them.

West. Heare me a whyle. MarginaliaLanfrancus contra Berengarius.Lanfrancus, sometyme bishop of Canterbury doth aunswere in thys wyse vnto Berengarius vpon such like questions: Salubriter credi possunt, fideliter quæri non possunt. They may be well beleued, but neuer faythfully asked.

Cran. If ye thinke good to aunswere it, some of you declare it.

Harps. He is there as pleaseth him to be there.

Cran. I would be best contented wyth that annswer, if that your appointing of a carnal presence had not driuen me of necessity to haue enquired for disputations sake, how you place him there, sithens you wyll haue a naturall body.

MarginaliaThe Papistes would haue Christes body in the Sacrament, but they cā not tel how.When agayne he was aunswered of diuers at one tyme, some denying it to be quantum, some saying it to be quantitatiuū, some affirming it to haue modum quanti, some denying it, some one thyng, some an other: vp start Doctor Weston, and doughtely decided (as he thought) all the matter, saying: it is MarginaliaCorpus quantum, sed non per modum quanti.Corpus quantum, sed non per modum quanti. i. It is a body (sayth he) hauing quantity, but not according to the maner of quantitie.

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Whereunto maister Warde, a great Sophister, 

Commentary  *  Close

Ward was described as a philosopher in 1563 (p. 988), this was changed to 'sophister' in later editions (1570, p. 1629; 1576, p. 1390; 1583, p. 1461).

thyncking the matter not fully aunswered, did largely declare and discourse his sentence: How learnedly and truely I can not tell, nor I thincke he himselfe neyther, ne yet the best learned there. For it was sayd since, that farre better learned then hee, layde as good care to hym as they could, and yet could by no meanes perceiue to what end all hys talke tended. MarginaliaM. Warde in the mistie cloudes of Dunses quiddities.In deede hee told a formall tale 
Commentary  *  Close

The description of Ward's argument as a 'goodly tale' (1563, p. 988) was changed to a 'formall tale' (1570, p. 1629; 1576, p. 1390; 1583, p. 1461), probably to avoid appearing to commend him.

to clout vp the matter. He was full of quantum and quantitatiuū. This that followeth, was, as it is thought, the effect: yet others thinke no. Howbeit we wyl rehearse the summe of his wordes, as it is thought he spake them.

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Warde. We must consider (sayth he) that there are duæ positiones, two positions. The one standeth by the order of partes, with respect of the whole. The other in respect of that which contayneth. Christ is in the sacrament in respect of the whole. This proposition is in one of MarginaliaAristotle must helpe to tell vs how Christ is in the Sacrament.Aristotles predicaments called Situs. I remember I did entreate these matters very largely, when I did rule and moderate the Philosophicall disputations in the publike Schooles. This position is sine modo quantitatiuo, as by an ensample: you can neuer bring heauen to a quantitie. MarginaliaChrist sine modo quantitatiuo in the Sacrament.So I conclude that he is in the sacrament quantum sine modo quantitatiuo.

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These wordes he amplified very largely, and so high he climed into the heauens wyth Duns his ladder, and not with the scriptures, that it is to bee marueiled how he could come down again without falling? To whom Maister Cranmer sayd: Then thus do I make my argument.

Cran. MarginaliaD. Cranmers Argument.In heauen his body hath quantitie, in earth it hath none, by your saying:

Ergo he hath two bodies, the one in heauen, the other in earth.

Here some would haue aunswered him, that he had

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