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1367 [1342]

Queene Mary. Disputation in the Conuocation house about the reall presence.

Marginalia1553.present alwayes in the sacrament of the aultar inuisibly, accordyng to your suppositions, whereof S. Augustine maketh no mention at al in all his workes: you shall seeme to iudge that which S. Augustine dyd neuer comprehend.

MarginaliaWatson.Why, quoth Watson, S. Augustine in the place by me alleged, maketh he not mention howe S. Steuen being in this world, saw Christ after his ascension?

MarginaliaPhilpot.It is true, said Philpot, but he saw Christ, as the scripture telleth, in the heauens being open, standing at the right hand of the father. Further to this Watson answeared not.

MarginaliaD. Weston.Then the Prolocutor went abut to furnish vp an answere to S. Augustine, saying, that he is not nowe in the world, after that maner of bodyly presence, but yet present for al that in his body.

MarginaliaPhilpot replyeth to Watson.To whom Philpot answeared, that the Prolocutor did grate much vpon this word Secundum, in S. Augustine, which signifieth after the maner, or in forme: but he dooth not answere to id quod, which is that thing or substance of Christ, in the which Christ suffred, arose, and ascended itno heauen: in the which thing and substance he is in heauen, and not on earth, as S. Austine in the place specified most clearely doth define.

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MarginaliaThe Deane of Rochester.To this nothing els being answered, the Deane of Rochester proceeded in the maintenance of his argument, and read out of a booke of Annotatiōs, sūdry authorities for the confirmation therof. To the which MarginaliaMoreman.Moreman, who was appoynted to answeare hym, made no direct answeare, but bade him make an argumēt, saying that master Deane had recited many woordes of Doctors, but he made not one argument.

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Then said the Deane, the authorities of the Doctors by me rehearsed be sufficient argumēts to proue myne intent to the which my desire is to be answered of you. But styll Moreman cryed, make an argument, to shift of the authoritie which he could not answeare vnto. After this the Deane made this argument out of the institution of the sacrament: Do this in remembrance of me: and thus ye shal shewe forth the Lordes death vntyl he come.

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MarginaliaArgument.The sacrament is the remembrance of Christ: Ergo, the sacrament is not very Christ: for yet he is not come. For these wordes, Vntyl he come, do plainly signifie the absence of Christes bodye. MarginaliaWeston aunswereth to the Argument.Then the Prolocutor went about to shewe that these wordes, vntyl he come, did not import any absence of Christ on the earth by other places of scripture, where MarginaliaDonec in Scripture.Donec, vntyl, was vsed in like sense: but directly to the purpose he answeared nothing.

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MarginaliaM. Deanes questions.In conclusion the Deane fell to questionyng wt Moreman, whether Christ did eate the Paschal lambe with his disciples, or no? He answeared, Yea. Further, he demaunded whether he eate likewise the sacrament with them, as he dyd institute it? MarginaliaMoreman affirmeth that Christ did eate his owne body.Moreman answered, Yea. Then he asked what he dyd eate, and whether he eate his owne natural body, as they imagine it to be, or no? Which when Moreman had affirmed, then said the Deane, it is a great absurditie by you graunted, and so he sate downe.

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MarginaliaPhilpot.Against this absurditie Philpot stood vp and argued, saying, he could proue by good reason deduced out of scripture, that Christ eate not his owne natural body at the institution of the sacrament: and the reason is this.

MarginaliaArgument.Ba-
Receiuyng of Christes body hath a promise of remis-
sion of sinnes with it annexed.
ro-
Christ eating the sacrament, had no promise of remis-
sion of sinne.
co.
Ergo, Christ in the sacrament dyd not eate his owne
body. 
Commentary  *  Close

Thus when Philpot argued that 'The body of Christ givyn by the sacrament hath a promes of remission of synnis adjoyned vnto all them that receyve it dewely, but this promes could take no effect in chryst, ergo christ ate not his own body in the sacrament', (Trew report, sigs. B6v-B7r; 1563, p. 909); Foxe changed this to 'Receaving of Christes body hath a promise of remission of sinnes with it annexed, Christ eating the Sacrament had no promise of remission of sinne, ergo, Christ in the Sacrament dyd not eate his own body' (1570, p. 1573; 1576, p. 1342; 1583, p. 1412).

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To this reason Moreman answeared, MarginaliaMoreman denyeth the Sacrament to haue a promise of remission of sinnes annexed vnto it.denying the former part of the argument, that the sacrament had a promise of remission of sinnes annexed vnto it.

MarginaliaPhilpot.Then Philpot shewed this to be the promise in the sacrament: Which is geuen for you, which is shed for you, for the remission of sinnes. But Moremā would not acknowledge that to be any promise, so that he droue Philpot to the sixt of s. Ioh. to vouch this saying with these wordes: The bread which I wyl geue, is my flesh, which I wyll geue for the life of the world.

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Moreman answering nothing directly to this argumēt, MarginaliaHarpesfield affirmeth that which his fellow denyed.Harpsfield start vp to supply that which wanted in his behalfe and thinking to haue answeared Philpot, confirmed more strongly his argumēt, saying: Ye mistake þe promise which is annexed to þe body of Christ in þe sacrament: for it perteyned not to Christ, but to his disciples, to whō Christ said: This is my body which is geuen for you, and not for Christ hym selfe.

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MarginaliaPhilpot.You haue said well for me, quoth Philpot, for that is myne argument. The promise of the body of Christ tooke no effect in Christ: Ergo, Christ eate not his owne body.Then the Prolocutor to shoulder out the matter, said.

the argument was nought: MarginaliaWeston also is contrary to Moreman.For by the like argument he might go about to proue that Christ was not baptised, because the remission of sinne, which is annexed vnto Baptisme, tooke no effect in Christ. To the which Philpot replyed, that like as Christ was baptised, so he eate the sacrament: but he tooke on hym Baptisme, not that he had any neede therof, or that it tooke any effect in hym, MarginaliaM. Philpots arguments not soluted.but as our master, to geue the church an example to folowe hym in the ministration of the sacrament, and thereby to exhibite vnto vs hym selfe, & not to geue hym selfe to hym selfe.

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No more was said in this. But afterward he Prolocutor demaunded of Philpot, whether he woulde argue against the natural presence, or no? To whom he answered, Yea, if he would heare his argument without interruption, and assigne one to answeare hym, & not many, whiche is a confusion to the Opponent, & specially for hym that was of an yl memory. By this time the night was come on: MarginaliaThe conuocation continued to the next day.Wherfore the Prolocutor brake vp the disputation for that time, and appoynted Philpot to be the first that should begyn the disputation the next day after, concernyng the presence of Christ in the sacrament.

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¶ The acte of the fourth day.

ON the wednesday the. xxv. of Octob. Io. Philpot, as it was before appointed, MarginaliaM. Philpot not suffered by the Prolocutor to make his declaration.was redy to haue entred the disputation, mynding first to haue made a certaine Oration, & a true declaration in Latine of the matter of Christes presence, which was then in question. Which thyng the Prolocutor perceiuyng, by & by he forbade Philpot to make any Oration or declaration of any matter, commaunding hym also, that he should make no argumēt in Latine, but to cōclude on his arguments in English.

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Then said Philpot, MarginaliaD. Weston contrary to his owne wordes.this is contrary to your order taken at the beginnyng of this disputation. For then you appointed that al the arguments should be made in Latine, & therupon I haue drawen & deuised al myne arguments in Latine. And because you master Prolocutor, haue said heretofore openly in this house, that I had no learnyng, I had thought to haue shewed such learning as I haue, in a briefe Oration & short declaration of the questions nowe in controuersie: thinking it so most cōuenient also, that in case I should speake otherwise in my declaration, then should stād with learnyng, or then I were able to warrrant and iustifie by Gods woord, it might the better be reformed by such as were learned of the house, so that the vnlearned sort beyng present, might take the lesse offence thereat. But this allegation preuayled nothyng with the Prolocutor, who bade hym styll forme an argument in English, or els to holde his peace.

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Then saide Philpot, You haue sore disappoynted me, thus sodenly to go from your former order: but I wyll accomplish your commaundement, leauyng myne Oration apart: and I wyll come to my argumentes, the whiche as well as so sodaine a warnyng wyll serue, I wyll make in Englishe. But before I bring forth any argumēt, I wyl in one word declare what maner of presence I disallow in þe Sacramēt, to the entent þe hearers may þe better vnderstād to what ende and effect myne argumentes shal tend: MarginaliaThe presence of Christ in the Sacrament distincted. The true presence of Christ in the Sacrament not denyed. The grosse presence of the Papistes denyed.not to deny vtterly the presence of Christ in his Sacrament truely ministred accordyng to his institution, but onely to denye that grosse & carnall presence which you of this house haue alreadye subscribed vnto, to be in the sacrament of the aultar, contrary to the truth and manifest meanyng of the scriptures: that by Transubstantiation of the sacramentall bread and wyne, Christes natural body should by the vertue of the wordes rponounced by the Prieste, be conteyned and included vnder the formes or accidences of bread and wyne. This kynd of presence imagined by men, I doo denye, quoth Philpot, and against this I wyll reason. But before he coulde make an ende of that he would haue sayde, he was interrupted of the Prolocutor, and commaunded to descende to his argument. At whose vniust importunitie Philpot being offended, and thinkyng to purchase hym a remedie therfore, he fell downe vpon his knees before the Earles and Lordes, whiche were there present, beyng a great nūber: wherof some were of þe Queenes coūsayle, MarginaliaPhilpot craueth of the Lordes to prosecute his argumentes without interruption.beseeching them that he might haue libertie to prosecute his argumentes without interruption of any man: the which was gently graunted hym of the Lordes. But the Prolocutor puttyng in vre a poynt of the practise of Prelates, would not condescend therunto, but styll cryed: MarginaliaPhilpot agayn interrupted by the Prolocutor.hold your peace, or els make a short argument. I am about it, quoth Philpot, if you would let me alone. But first I must nedes aske a question of my Respondēt (who was D. Chedsey) concernyng a word or twaine of your supposition, that is, of the sacrament of the aultar, what he meaneth therby, and whether he take it as some of the auncient writers do,

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