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1368 [1343]

Q. Mary. Disputation in the Conuocation house about the reall presence.

Marginalia1554.termyng the Lords supper, the sacrament of the altar MarginaliaAltar diuersly taken.partly because it is a sacrament of that liuely sacrifice whiche Christ offered for our sinnes vpon the aultar of the Crosse, and partly because that Christs body crucified for vs, was that bloudy sacrifice whiche the bloudshedding of all the beastes offered vpon the aultar in the old lawe, dyd prefigurate and signifie vnto vs: in signification whereof the olde writers sometime do call the sacrament of the body & bloud of Christ, among other names which they ascribe thereunto the sacrament of the altar: or whether you take it otherwise, as for the sacramēt of the altar which is made of lyme and stone, ouer the whiche the sacrament hangeth, and to be all one with the sacrament of the masse, as it is at this present in many places. This done, I wyl direct mine argumentes according as your aunsweare shall geue me occasion.

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MarginaliaChadsey.Then made D. Chedsey this answer, that in their supposition they tooke the sacrament of the altar, & the sacrament of the masse to be al one.

Then, quoth Philpot, I wyll speake plaine Englishe, as master Prolocutor willeth me, and make a short resolution therof: that the sacrament of the altar which ye recken to be al one with the masse, once iustly abolished, & now put in ful vse againe, is no sacrament at al, neither is Christ in any wise present in it: and this his saying he offred to proue before the whole house, if they listed to call hym thereunto: and likewise offered to vouch the same before the Queenes grace and her most honorable Counsaile, before the face of sixe of the best learned men of the house of the contrary opinion, & refused none. And if I shal not be able (quoth he) to mainteyne by Gods word, that I haue said, & confounde those sixe which shall take vppon them to withstand me in this poynt, let me be burned with as many fagots as be in London, before the Court gates. This he vttered with great vehemencie of spirite.

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At this the Prolocutor with diuers other, were very much offended, demaunding of hym whether he wyst what he said or no? MarginaliaPhilpots offer in the Conuocation house.Yea, quoth Philpot, I wote well what I say: desiring no man to be offended with his saying, for that he spake no more thē by Gods word he was able to proue. And praysed be God, quoth he, that the Queenes grace hath granted vs of this house (as our Prolocutor hath informed vs) that we maye freely vtter our consciences in these matters of controuersie in Religion: and therfore I wyl speake here my conscience freely grounded vpon Gods holy word for the truth, albeit some of you here present mislike the same.

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Then diuers of the house beside the Prolocutor, taunted and reprehended hym for speaking so vnfaringly against the sacrament of the masse: MarginaliaThe Prolocutor threatneth Philpot.and the Prolocutor said he was mad, & threatned hym, that he would send hym to prison, if he would not cease his speaking. MarginaliaArgument a loco topico carceris.

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Philpot seeing hym selfe thus abused, and not permitted with free libertie to declare his mynd, fell into an exclamatiō, casting his eyes vp towardes þe heauen, & said: O Lord what a world is this, that the truth of thy holy word may not be spoken & abyden by? and for very sorow & heauines the teares trickled out of his eyes.

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After this, the Prolocutor being moued by some that were about hym, was cōtent that he should make an argument, so that he would be briefe therin. MarginaliaPhilpot permitted to make a briefe argument. I wyl be as briefe, quoth Philpot, as I may cōueniently be in vttering al that I haue to say. And first I wyl begyn to ground myne arguments vpon the authoritie of scriptures, wherupō al the building of our faith ought to be grounded: and after I shal confirme the same by ancient doctors of the church. And I take the occasiō of my first argument out of the. MarginaliaMath. 28.28. of Mathew, of the saying of the angel to the three Maryes seking Christ at the sepulchre, saying: He is risen: he is not here: and in MarginaliaLuke 23.S. Luke in the. 23. chapt. the angel asketh thē, why they sought hym that lyueth, among the dead. MarginaliaArgument of M. Philpot.Likwise the scripture testifieth that Christ is risen, ascended vnto heauen, & sitteth on the right hand of the father: al the which is spoken of his natural body: Ergo, it is not on earth included in the sacrament.

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I wyl confirme this yet more effectually by the saying of Christ, in MarginaliaIohn 16.the. 16. of S. Iohn: I came (saith Christ) frō my father into the worlde, and now I leaue the worlde, and go away to my father. The which commyng and going he meant of his natural body. Therfore we may affirme therby, that it is not now in the world.

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But I looke here (quoth he) to be answeared with a MarginaliaThe blinde distinction of the Papistes. Visibly. Inuisibly.blinde distinction of visibly & inuisibly, that he is visibly departed in his humanitie, but inuisibly he remayneth notwithstanding in the sacrament. But that answer I preuēt my self, that with more expedition I may descend to þe pyth of myne arguments, wherof I haue a dosen to propose, and wyll proue that no such distinction ought to take away the

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force of that argument, by the answere which Christes disciples gaue vnto hym, speakyng these wordes: Now thou speakest plainely, and vtterest forth no Prouerbe. Whiche woordes MarginaliaCyrillus.S. Cyril interpretyng, saith: That Christe spake without any maner of ambiguitie, or obscure speache. And therfore I cōclude hereby thus, that if Christ spake plainly & without parable, saying: I leaue the world now, and go away to my father, then that obscure, darke, & imperceptible presence of Christes natural body to remayne in the sacrament vpon earth inuisibly, contrary to the plaine wordes of Christ, ought not to be allowed: For nothing can be more vncertaine, or more parabolicall & vnsensible, then so to say. Here now wyl I attend what you wyl answeare, & so descend to the confirmation of al that I haue said, by auncient writers.

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MarginaliaChadseyes answere to Philpot.Then D. Chedsey recityng his argument in such order as it was made, tooke vpon him to answere seuerally to euery part therfore on this wise. First to þe saying of þe angel. That Christ is not here: And why seeke ye the liuyng among the dead? He answered, that these sayinges perteyned nothing to the presence of Christes natural body in the sacrament, but that they were spoken of Christes body being in the sepulchre when the three Maryes thought hym to haue ben in the graue styl. And therfore the angell sayd: Why do ye seeke hym that liueth, among the dead? And to the authoritie of the. 16. of Ioh. where Christ saith: Now I leaue the world, and go to my father. he meant that of his ascension. And so likewise dyd Cyril, interpreting the saying of the disciples that knewe plainely that Christ woulde visibly ascend into heauen, but that doth not exclude the inuisible presence of his natural body in the sacrament. For S. Chrysostome writing to the people of Antioch, doth affirme the same, comparing Helias and Christ together, and Helias cloke vnto Christes flesh. MarginaliaChrysost. ad populum Antioch.Helias (quoth he) when he was taken vp in the fiery chariot, leaft his cloke behynde hym vnto his disciple Helisæus. But Christ ascending into heauen, tooke his flesh with hym, and left also his flesh behind him. Wherby we may right wel gather, that Christs flesh is visibly ascended into heauen, and inuisibly abydeth styl in the sacrament of the altar.

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To this Philpot replyed, & said, MarginaliaPhilpot replyeth to Chadsey.you haue not directly answered to the saying of the angel: Christ is risen, & is not here, because you haue omitted that which was the chiefest poynt of al. 

Commentary  *  Close

Foxe altered the passage: 'To this answer, Fyllpot replyed, and sayd that he inforced not his argument upon the saying of the angell, (Christ is rysen and not here), but toke his beginnyng therby to procede as is before is rehearsed: so that process wherof yow have not thorowli answered' (Trew report, sig. C5r-v; 1563, p. 911) to read 'To this Philpot replied and sayd, you have not directly aunswered to the saying of the Aungell: Christ is risen and is not here, because you have omitted that which was the chiefest point of all' (1570, p. 1575; 1576, p. 1343; and 1583, p. 1414). Foxe's emendations concealed Philpot's damaging admission that the Scriptural passage he quoted did not support his argument.

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For (said he) I proceded further, as thus: He is risen, ascended, & sitteth at the right hand of God the father: Ergo, he is not remainyng on the earth. Neither is your answere to Cyril, by me alleged, sufficient. But by & by I wyll returne to your interpretation of Cyril, and more playnly declare the same, after that I haue first refelled þe authoritie of Chrysostome, which is one of your chiefe Principles that you alleged to make for your grosse carnal presence in the sacrament. Which beyng well weyed and vnderstanded, perteyneth nothing therunto.

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At that the Prolocutor startled, that one of the chiefe pyllers in this poynt should be ouerthrowen, & therfore recited the sayd authoritie in Latine first, & afterward Englished the same, wyllyng all that were present, to note that saying of Chrysostome, whiche he thought inuincible on their side. But I shal make it appere, quoth Philpot, by & by to make litle for your purpose. And as he was about to declare his mynd in that behalf, the Prolocutor dyd interrupt hym as he dyd, almost continually. MarginaliaPhilpot agayne interrupted by the Prolocutor. Wherwith Philpot not beyng content said: Master Prolocutor thinketh that he is in a Sophistrie schoole, where he knoweth right well the maner is, that when the Respōdent perceyueth that he is like to be inforced with an argument to the which he is not able to answere, thē he doth what he can with cauillation & interruptiō to driue him from the same. This saying of Philpot was yl takē of the Prolocutor & his adherēts: & the Prolocutor sayd, that Philpot could bring nothing to auoyd that authority, but his own vaine imaginatiō. Heare quoth Philpot, & afterward iudge. For I wil do in this as al other authorities wherewith you shal charge me in refellyng any of my argumentes that I haue to prosecute, answearing eyther vnto the same by sufficient authorities of scripture, or els by some other testimonie of like authoritie to yours, & not of myne owne imagination: the which if I do, I wyl it to be of no credite. And concernyng the saying of Chrysostome, I haue two wayes to beat hym frō your purpose, the one out of scripture, the other of Chrysostome hym selfe, in the place here by you alleged.

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MarginaliaThe place of Chrisostome of Christ taking vp his flesh and leauing his fleshe, answered to by Philpot.First, where he seemeth to say, that Christ ascendyng, tooke his flesh with hym, and leaft also his fleshe behynde hym, truth it is: for we al do confesse & beleue that Christe tooke on hym our humane nature in the virgine Maryes wombe, and through his passion in the same hath vnited vs to his fleshe, and thereby are we become one fleshe with him, so that Chrysostome might therfore right wel say, that

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Christ
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