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1371 [1346]

Queene Mary. Disputation in the Conuocation house about the reall presence.

Marginalia1553.aunsweare sufficiently to some of his argumentes as they had promised to do: whereof he had a dosen, not halfe of the first being yet decided: and if they woulde aunsweare fully and sufficiently but to one of his Argumentes, he promised that he would answeare all the obiections that they should bring.

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Then the Prolocutor bade hym propounde his Argument, and it should be resolutely answeared by one of them: wherunto M. Morgan was appoynted. Vpon Wednesday last (quoth MarginaliaPhilpot.he) I was inforced to silence before I had prosecuted halfe of myne argument: the summe whereof was this (as was gathered by the iust context of the scripture) that the humane body of Christ was ascended into heauen, and placed on the right hand of God the father: wherfore it could not be situate vpon earth in the sacrament of the aultar, inuisible after the imagination of man. The argument was denied by Morgan. For the proufe wherof, Philpot said, that this was it wherwith he had to confirme his first argument, if they would haue suffered hym the other day, as now he trusted they would.

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MarginaliaArgument.Fe-
One selfe and same nature (quoth he) receiueth not
in it selfe any thing that is contrary to it selfe.
ri-
But the bodye of Christe is an humane nature, di-
stinct from the deitie, and is a proper nature of it selfe.
o.
Ergo, it can not receiue any thing that is contrary to
that nature, and that varieth from it selfe.

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But bodyly to be present and bodyly to be absent, to be on earth and to be in heauen, and at one present tyme, be thinges contrary to the nature of a humane body: Ergo, it can not be said of the humane body of Christ, that the selfe same body is both in heauen and also in earth at one instāt, either visibly or inuisibly.

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MarginaliaMorgan.Morgan denyed the Maior, that is, the first part of the argumēt. The which Philpot vouched out of Vigilius an auncient writer. MarginaliaHere is a newe euasion inuented by Morgan who dare not playnly deny Vigilius authoritie, but vnder a colour.But Morgan cauilled that it was no scripture, and bade hym proue the same out of scripture.

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Philpot said, he could also so doo, and right well deduce the same out of S. Paul, who saith that Christ is like vnto vs in al poyntes, except sinne: and therfore like as one of our bodyes can not receiue in it selfe any thing contrary to the nature of a body, as to be in Paules Church and at Westminster at one tyme. MarginaliaOne body can not be at once in diuers places. For that is so contrary to the nature of a body, and of al creatures (as Didimus and Basilius doo affirme) that an inuisible creature, as an Angell, can no be at one tyme in diuers places: wherfore he concluded, that the body of Christ might not be in moe places thē in one, which is in heauen, and so cōsequently, not to be cōteyned in the sacrament of the altar.

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MarginaliaWeston.To this the Prolocutor tooke vpon hym to answeare, saying, that it was not true that Christ was like vnto vs in all poyntes as Philpot tooke it, except sinne: For that Christ was not conceyued by the seede of man, as we be.

Wherunto Philpot againe replyed, MarginaliaChrist after his incarnation, was in all pointes lyke man, sinne onely except.that Christes conception wrs prophesied before by the angel to be supernatural, but after he had receiued our nature by the operation of the holy ghost in the virgins wombe, he became in al points like vnto vs, except sinne.

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MarginaliaMorgan.Thē Morgan inferred that this saying of Paul did not plainly proue his purpose. MarginaliaPhilpot.Wel, quoth Philpot, I perceyue that you do answere but by cauillation: yet am I not destitute of other scriptures to confirme my first argument, although you refuse the probation of so ancient & catholique a doctor as Vigilius is. S. Peter in the sermō that he made in the third of the Actes, making mention of Christ, sayth these wordes: MarginaliaActes. 3.Whom heauen must receyue, vntyll the consummation of al thinges. &c. Which wordes are spoken of his humanitie. If heauen must hold Christ, then can he not be here on earth in the sacrament, as is pretended.

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Then Morgan laughing at this, and geuing no direct answere at al, MarginaliaHarpsfield steppeth in.Harpsfield stood vp, being one of the Bishop of Londons Chaplaynes, and tooke vpon hym to answeare to the saying of saint Peter, & demaunded of Philpot, whether he woulde, Ex necessitate, that is, of necessitie force Christ to any place, or no?

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MarginaliaPhilpot.Philpot said, that he would no othewise force Christ of necessitie to any place, then he is taught by the wordes of the holy ghost, which sound thus: that Christes humane body must abide in heauen, vntyl the day of iudgement, as I rehearsed out of the chapt. before mentioned.

MarginaliaHarpsfield.Why, quoth Harpsfield, do you not know that Christ is God omnipotent? Yes, said Philpot, I know that right wel, neither doubt I any thing at all of his omnipotencie. But of Christes omnipotencie what he may doo, is not our question, but rather what he dooth. I knowe he may make a stone in the wall, a man, if he lyst, and also that he may make mo worldes: but doth he therfore so? It were no good consequent so to conclude: he may do this or that,

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therfore he doth it.

Ba-
Onely so much is to be beleued of Gods omnipoten-
cie, as is in the word expressed.
ro-
That Christes body is both in heauen & here also re-
ally in the sacrament, is not expressed in the word:
co.
Ergo, It is not to be beleued that the body of Christ
beyng in heauen, is here also really in the sacrament. 
Commentary  *  Close

Philpot said: 'we must byleve so moch of his [God's] omnipotency as he by his word hath declared and taught us that the heavens must receyve his body vntill the daie of dome therfor we ought to bileve' (Trew report, sig. E2v; 1563, p. 915). Foxe made Philpot's argument more explicit and recast it as a syllogism: 'Only so much is to bee beleved of Gods omnipotence as is in the word expressed. That Christs body is both in heaven and here also really in the Sacrament is not expressed in the worde, Ergo, It is not to be beleved that the body of Christ being in heaven is here also really in the Sacrament' (1570, p. 1578; 1576, p. 1346; and 1583, p. 1416).

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And, where Philpot in answer to a scriptural passage which John Harpsfield had cited to rebut his arguments, declared 'the places were not like which he [Harpsfield] went about to compare, which thing ought to be observed in conferring of wordes or scriptures together' (Trew report, sigs. E2v-E3r; 1563, p. 915). Foxe's version reads: 'the places were not alike whych he went about to compare, and that in comparing Scriptures we must not consider the named wordes, but the meaning rather of the Scriptures' (1570, p. 1578; 1576, p. 1346; and 1583, p. 1417).

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Why, quoth the Prolocutor, then you wyl put Christ in prison in heauen. MarginaliaIf Weston charge them for prisoning Christ in heauen, how much more may they charge the Papistes for prisoning Christ in a boxe. To the which Philpot answeared: to you recken heauē to be a prison? God graunt vs al to come to that prison.

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After this, Harpsfield inferred that this word Oportet in S. Peter, which signifieth in English must, did not import so much as I would inferre of necessitie, as by other places of scripture it may apperare: as in the first to Timothy where Paul saith: Oportet Episcopum esse vnius vxoris virum: A Bishop must be the husband of one wife. Here quoth he, Oportet doth not import such a necessity, but that he that neuer was marryed may be a Bishop.

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MarginaliaM. Philpot.To this Philpot said agayne, that the places were not like which he went about to compare: and that in comparting of þe scriptures we must not consider þe naked wordes, but the meanyng rather of the Scriptures: 

Commentary  *  Close

Philpot said: 'we must byleve so moch of his [God's] omnipotency as he by his word hath declared and taught us that the heavens must receyve his body vntill the daie of dome therfor we ought to bileve' (Trew report, sig. E2v; 1563, p. 915). Foxe made Philpot's argument more explicit and recast it as a syllogism: 'Only so much is to bee beleved of Gods omnipotence as is in the word expressed. That Christs body is both in heaven and here also really in the Sacrament is not expressed in the worde, Ergo, It is not to be beleved that the body of Christ being in heaven is here also really in the Sacrament' (1570, p. 1578; 1576, p. 1346; and 1583, p. 1416).

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And, where Philpot in answer to a scriptural passage which John Harpsfield had cited to rebut his arguments, declared 'the places were not like which he [Harpsfield] went about to compare, which thing ought to be observed in conferring of wordes or scriptures together' (Trew report, sigs. E2v-E3r; 1563, p. 915). Foxe's version reads: 'the places were not alike whych he went about to compare, and that in comparing Scriptures we must not consider the named wordes, but the meaning rather of the Scriptures' ' (1570, p. 1578; 1576, p. 1346; and 1583, p. 1417).

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for that in the place by hym alleged, saint Paul doth declare of what quality a bishop ought to be. MarginaliaOportet how it is taken diuersly in Scripture.But in the other s. Peter teacheth vs the place wher Christ must necessaryly be vntyl the end of the world: which we ought to beleue to be true. And this comparison of this word Oportet, doth no more answeare myne argument, then if I would say of you nowe beyng here, Oportet te hic esse, You must needes be here: which importeth such necessity for the tyme, that you can none otherwise be but here, & yet you would go about in wordes to auoyde this necessity with an other Oportet, in an other sense, as this: Oportet te esse virum bonum, You must be a good man: where Oportet doth not in very deede conclude any such necessitie, but that you may be an euyl man. Thus you may see that your answeare is not sufficient, and as it were no answeare to myne argument.

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MarginaliaWeston.Then the Prolocutor brought in an other Oportet, to helpe this matter (if it might be) saying: What say you to this: Oportet hæreses esse, must heresies nedes be therfore because of this word Oportet?

MarginaliaPhilpot.Yea truely, quoth Philpot, it can not otherwise be, if you wyl adde that which foloweth immediatly vpō these words of Paul, that is, Vt qui electi sunt manifestentur, that is, That suche as be the electe of God, may be manifested and knowen.

MarginaliaWeston.Why, quoth the Prolocutor, the tyme hath bene that no heresies were. MarginaliaPhilpot.I know no such tyme, quoth Philpot. For since the tyme of Abel & Cain, heresies haue ben, and then began they. MarginaliaWeston.Then said the Prolocutor, wyl you nowe answere Morgan an argument or two? MarginaliaPhilpot.I wyl, quoth Philpot, if I may first be answeared to myne argument any thyng according to truth & to learnyng. What, quoth the Prolocutor, you wyl neuer be answeared. How I am answeared, quoth Philpot, let all men that are here present, iudge: and specially such as be learned, and with what cauillations you haue dalyed with me.

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First to the ancient authority of Vigilius, you haue answeared nothing at all, but onely denying it to be scripture, that he saith Secondly, to the saying of S. Peter in the Actes, ye haue answered thus, demaundyng of me whether I would keepe Christ in prison, or no. Let men now iudge if this be a sufficient answeare, or no.

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MarginaliaMorgan.Then stood Morgan vp agayne, & asked Philpot whether he would be ruled by the vniuersal Church, or no.

MarginaliaPhilpot.Yes, quoth he, if it be the true Catholike church. And sith you speake so much of the church, I would fayne that you would declare what the church is.

MarginaliaMorgan.The church quoth Morgan, is diffused & dispersed thorow out the whole world. MarginaliaPhilpot.That is a diffuse definitiō, quoth Philpot: for I am yet as vncertain as I was before, what you meane by the church. But I knowledge no church, but that which is groūded and founded on Gods word, as S. Paul saith: Vpon the foundation of the Prophets and Apostles, and vpon the Scriptures of God.

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MarginaliaMoreman. Whether the Church was before the Scripture.What, quoth Moreman, was the scripture before the church? yea, quoth Philpot. But I wyl proue nay, quoth Moreman, & I wyl begin at Christes tyme. The Church of Christ was before any scripture written. For Mathew was the first that wrote the gospel, about a dosen yeres after Christ: Ergo, the church was before the scripture.

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To whom Philpot answearing, denyed this argument. Which when Moreman could not proue, Philpot shewed that his argument was Elenchus or a fallace, that is, a deceiuable argument. For he tooke the Scripture onely to be that whiche is written by men in letters, whre as in very deede all Prophecye vttered by the spirite of God,

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