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1381 [1356]

Q. Mary. Talke of M. Ridley at the Lieftenauntes table touching the Sacrament.

MarginaliaAn. 1554. Decemb.

Boners Oration in praise of Priesthode.

MarginaliaThe profound exhortation of B. Boner in the Conuocation.WHerfore it is to be known that Priestes and Elders be worthy of all men to be worshipped for the dignity sake which they haue of god, as in Math. 16. Whatsoeuer ye shal loose vpon earth. &c. And whatsoeuer you shall bynd. &c. MarginaliaPriestes compared to the virgin Mary in three pointes.For a priest by some meanes is lyke Mary the virgin, and is shewed by thre pointes: As the blessed Virgin by fiue wordes did conceyue Christ, as it is sayd: Luke. 1. Fiat mihi secundum verbum tuum: that is to say. Be it vnto me according to thy worde: so the priest by v wordes doth make the very body of Christ. Euen as immediately after thr consent of Mary, Christ was all whole in her wombe: so immediately after the speakyng of the wordes of consecration, the bread is transubstantiated into the very body of Christ. Secondly, as the Virgin caried Christ in her armes, and layd him in an Oxe stall after hys birth: euen so the Priest after the consecration, doth lift vp the body of Christ, & placeth it, and carieth it, and handleth it with hys handes. Thirdly, as the blessed Virgine was sanctified before she conceyued: so the Priest beyng ordeyned and annoynted before he doth consecrate, because without orders he could cōsecrate nothing, therfore the Lay man cannot do the thyng, although he be neuer so holy, and doe speake the selfe same wordes of consecration. MarginaliaPriesthoode compared & preferred before the state of Aungels.Therfore here is to be known, that the dignity of priestes by some meanes passeth the dignity of Aungels, because there is no power geuen to any of the Angles to make the body of Christ. Wherby the least priest may do in earth, that the greatest and highest Aungell in heauen can not do as s. Bernard sayth: O worshipfull dignitie of Priestes, in whose handes the Sonne of God is, as in the wombe of the Virgin he was incarnate. S. Augustine sayth that Angels in the consecration of the sacred host doe serue him, and the Lord of heauen descendeth to him. Wherupon S. Ambrose vpon Luke sayth: Doubt thou not the Angels to be where Christ is present vpon the aulter. Wherefore Priestes are to be honoured before all kinges of the earth, Princes and Nobles. MarginaliaBlasphemy.For a Priest is higher thē a Kyng, happier then an Aungell, maker of hys Creator. Wherfore. &c.

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It was declared a little before how Doct. Ridley was had from Fremingham to the Tower: where beyng in duraunce, and inuited to the Lieftenantes table, he had certain talke or conference with Secretary Bourne, M. Fecknā and other concerning the controuersies in religion: the sūme whereof, as it was penned with hys owne hand, hereafter ensueth. 

Commentary  *  Close
Block 16: The Communication between Bourne and Ridley

The dialogue between Ridley and Sir John Bourne continues the pattern of argument about the eucharist alternating with political narrative which runs throughout Book 10. The dialogue first appeared in print in the 1563 edition (1563, p. 929-32; 1570, p. 1589-91; 1576, p. 1356-58; 1583, p. 1426-28); there is no earlier surviving print or manuscript version. Foxe states that the dialogue was penned with Ridley's own hand; apparently Foxe obtained a unique copy. As will be seen in Book 11, George Shipside, Ridley's brother-in-law, was one of Foxe's sources; it is quite possible that he obtained the dialogue for Foxe.

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Here followeth the summe and effect of the communication betwene D. Ridley, and Secretary Bourne with others, at the Lieftenantes table in the Tower.

 

Commentary on the Glosses  *  Close
'The Communication'

A large number of glosses ('Vnitie, Antiquitie, Vniuersalitie' and ten following) appear in all editions, and concern Ridley's successful answer to Fecknam, taking his own categories of unity, antiquity and universality and refashioning them in a suitably protestant way, together with an exposition of 'hoc est' (see also 'The place of Saint Cyprian expounded' for another example of Ridley expounding). For an example of Ridley's view being given authoritative status by a marginal gloss, see 'The doctrine of the Sacrament not new'. A 1563 gloss which seems to be mocking the poor logic of the catholics was later dropped, possibly because it was rather obscurely phrased ('Ergo ther is no substance of bread in the sacrament'). The veil drawn over the connection between the catechism and Cranmer after 1563 ('Bishop of Caunterburys boke' (1563); 'The booke of Catechisme' (later editions)) is perhaps significant in the light of concerns about the Prayer Book.

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MarginaliaSyr Tho. Abridges.MAister Thomas of Bridges sayd at his brother maister Lieftenauntes boorde: I pray you M. Doctors, for my learnyng tell me what an heretike is. M. Secretary Bourne sayd, I will tell you who is an heretike: MarginaliaWho is an hereticke.who so stubburnly and stifly mainteyneth an vntruth, he is an heretike. Ye meane sir (said I) an vntruth in matters of religion, and concerning our fayth, Yea that is true sayd he: & in this we were soone agreed. Then sayde M. Fecknam, sitting at the vpper ende of the table, whom they called M. Deane of Paules: I will tell you by s. Austine who is an heretike. MarginaliaAn hereticke defined by S. Austen.Qui adulandi Principibus vel lucri gratia falsas opiniones gignit vel sequitur, hæreticus est, 
Latin/Greek Translations  *  Close
St. Augustine
Foxe text citation

Line 60: Qui adulandi Principibus vel lucri gratia falsas opiniones gignit vel sequitur, hereticus est.

[As in 1570]

Line 63: vel vanae gloriae causa

[As in 1570]

Foxe text translation

Not translated.

Actual text of St. Augustine, De utilitate credendi (Migne, P.L. Vol. 042, Col. 0065)

Nunc vero cum inter haec duo plurimum intersit: quandoquidem haereticus est, ut mea fert opinio, qui alicujus temporalis commodi, et maxime gloriae principatusque sui gratia, falsas ac novas opiniones vel gignit vel sequitur; ille autem qui hujusmodi hominibus credit, homo est imaginatione quadam veritatis ac pietatis illusus:

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[These are clearly references to this passage of St. Augustine, but the Latin has been heavily edited.]

sayth S. Austine & thē he englished the same. Sir said I, I wene s. Austine addeth the third member, which is, vel vanæ gloriæ causa. 
Latin/Greek Translations  *  Close
St. Augustine
Foxe text citation

Line 60: Qui adulandi Principibus vel lucri gratia falsas opiniones gignit vel sequitur, hereticus est.

[As in 1570]

Line 63: vel vanae gloriae causa

[As in 1570]

Foxe text translation

Not translated.

Actual text of St. Augustine, De utilitate credendi (Migne, P.L. Vol. 042, Col. 0065)

Nunc vero cum inter haec duo plurimum intersit: quandoquidem haereticus est, ut mea fert opinio, qui alicujus temporalis commodi, et maxime gloriae principatusque sui gratia, falsas ac novas opiniones vel gignit vel sequitur; ille autem qui hujusmodi hominibus credit, homo est imaginatione quadam veritatis ac pietatis illusus:

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[These are clearly references to this passage of St. Augustine, but the Latin has been heavily edited.]

Ye say euen true M. doctor, sayd he, and thus farre we did agree all three.

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M. Fecknam began agayne to say, MarginaliaFecknam prouoking M. Ridley.who so doth not beleue that scripture affirmeth, but will obstinately maintain the contrary, he is Hæreticus: as in the sacrament of þe aulter. Mathew doth affirme there to be christes body. Marke doth affirme it, Luke affirmeth it, Paule affirmeth it, and none denieth it: therfore to hold the contrary it is heresie. It is the same body and flesh that was borne of the virgin: and this is confirmed by MarginaliaVnitie, Antiquitie, Vniuersalitie.vnitie, antiquity, and vniuersality. For none before Berengarius did euer doubt of this, & he was an heretike, as M. doctor there knoweth full well: I do testifie his owne conscience sayd he.

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Mary sir, said maister Secretary, maister Fecknam hath spoken well. These be great matters, vnitie, antiquity and vniuersalitie. Do ye not so thinke M. Doctor sayde he to me?

Here, while I strayned curtesie & pretended as nothing to talke, sayd one of the Commissioners: peraduenture M. Ridly doth agree with M. Fecknam, and thē there needes not much debating of the matter.

Sir, sayd I, in some thinges I do and shall agre with hym, and in some things which he hath spoken to be plaine, I do not agree with hym at all. Maisters sayd I, ye be (as I vnderstand) the Quenes Commissioners here, & if ye haue commission to examine me in those matters, I shal declare vnto you plainly my faith: if ye haue not, then I shall pray you either geue me leaue to speake my mynd freely, or els to hold my peace.

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There is none here, sayd M. Secretary, that doth not fauour you: and then euery man shewed what fauour they bare towardes me, and how glad they would be of an agrement.

But as I strayed to haue licence of thē in plain wordes to speake my mynd, so me thought they graunted me it but vix or ægrè. Well, at the last I was content to take it for licenced, and so began to talke.

MarginaliaB. Ridley aunswering to Fecknam.To M. Fecknams argumentes of the manifold affirmation where no deniall was, I answered: Where is a multitude of affirmations in scripture, and where is one affirmation, all is one concernyng the truth of the matter: for that any one of the Euangelistes spake inspired by the holy Ghost, was as true as that which is spoken of them al. It is as true that Iohn sayth of Christ: Ego sum ostium ouium. i. I am the dore of the shepe, as if all had sayd it. MarginaliaTruth in scripture goeth not by number of affirmation where one is sufficient.For it is not in scripture as in witnes of men where the number is credited more then one, because it is vncertayne of whose spirit he doth speake. And where M. Fecknam spake of so many, affirmyng without any negation. &c. Sir sayd I, all they do affirme the thyng which they ment. MarginaliaWordes in scripture must be takē with their meaning.Now if ye take their wordes and leaue their meanyng. then do they affirme what ye take, but not what they ment. 

Commentary  *  Close

A few distortions occurred in the printing of the dialogue from edition to edition. In 1563 (p 929), a passage reads 'then they do not affirme what ye take but what they ment' (my emphasis). In 1570 (p 1589), the word 'not' was omitted and this omission was repeated in subsequent editions (1576, p. 1356; 1583, p. 1427).

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Sir sayd I, if in talke with you, I should so vtter my mynd in words, that ye by the same do, and may plainly perceyue my meanyng, & could (if ye would be captious) cauill at my words & wryth them to an other sence, I would thinke ye were no gentle companion to talke with, except ye would take my wordes as ye did perceiue that I did meane.

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Mary, quoth M. Secretary, he should els do you plain iniury and wrong.

M. Fecknam perceiuyng whereunto my talke went, why (quoth he) what circumstaunces can ye shew me that should moue to thinke of any other sence, then as the words plainly say: Hoc est corpus meum, quod pro vobis tradetur. i. This is my body which shall be betrayed for you?

MarginaliaHoc est corpus meum expounded.Sir sayd I, euen the next sentence that followeth: viz. Hoc facite in meam commemorationem. i. Do this in my remembraunce. And also by what reason, ye say the breade is turned into Christes carnall body: by the same I may say, that it is turned into his mistical body. MarginaliaReasons why these words ought to be taken not literally.For as that saith of it: Hoc est corpus quod pro vobis tradetur: so Paul which spake by Christes spirit, sayth: Vnus panis & vnum corpus multi sumus omnes, qui de vno pane participamus. i. We beyng many are all one bread and one body, in as much as we are partakers of one bread.

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Here he calleth one bread, one loafe, sayd Maister Secretary.

Yea said I, one loafe, one bread, all is one with me.

But what say ye quoth Maister Secretary, of the Vniuersalitie, antiquitie, and vnitie, that M. Fecknam dyd speake of?

I ensure you, sayd I. I thinke them matters weighty and to be considered well. MarginaliaVnitie wyth veritie to be allowed.As for vnitye, the truth is, before God, I do beleue it and embrace it, so it bee with veritie, & ioyned to our head Christ, and such one as Paule, speaketh of, saying: Vna fides, vnus Deus, vnū Baptisma. i. One fayth, one God, one Baptisme. MarginaliaAntiquitie.And for antiquitie I am also persuaded to be true that Irenæus sayth: Quod primum verum i. 

Latin/Greek Translations  *  Close
Irenaeus
Foxe text citation

Quod primum verum

[As in 1570]

Foxe text translation

That is first is true.

[As in 1570]

Actual text of Irenaeus?

[Original in Greek. Search unlikely to find anything helpful.]

That is first is true. In our Religion Christes fayth was first truly taught by Christ him selfe, by his Apostles and by many good men that from the begynnyng did succede next vnto them: and for this controuersie of the sacrament I am persuaded, that those old wryters which wrote before the cōtrouersie and the vsurpyng of the sea of Rome, do all agree. if they be well vnderstanded in this truth.

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I am glad to heare, sayd maister Secretary, that ye doe so well esteme the Doctors of the Church.

Now as for vniuersalitie, it may haue ij. meanynges: MarginaliaVniuersality hath a double vnderstanding.one to vnderstand that to be Vniuersall which from the begynnyng in all ages hath ben allowed, an other, to vnderstand vniuersalitie for the multitude of our age or of any other singular age.

No, no, sayth Maister Secretary, these 3. do alwayes agree, and where there is one, there is all the rest, and here he and I chaunged many wordes. And finally, to be short in this matter, we did not agree.

There was none, quoth Maister Fecknam, before Berengarius, Wickleffe, and Hus, and now in our dayes Carolostadius, and Oecolampadius. And Carolosta-

dius,
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