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1382 [1357]

Q. Mary. Talke betwen B. Ridley, Secretary Browne & others touching the sacramēt.

Marginalia1554. March.dius sayth. Christ poynteth to his own body and not to the Sacrament, and sayd: Hoc est Corpus meum. And Melancton wryteth to one Micronius (Miconius sayd I) these or like words: MarginaliaMelancton ad Myconium.Nullam satis grauem rationem inuenire possum, propter quam a fide maiorum in hac materia dissentiam i. 

Latin/Greek Translations  *  Close
Melancton. Ad Myconium
Foxe text citation

Nullam satis grauem rationem inuenire possum, propter quam a fide maiorum in hac materia dissentiam

[As in 1570]

Foxe text translation

I can finde no grounded reason to cause me to dissent from the beleef of our forelders.

[As in 1570]

Actual text of Melanchthon

[Unable to find Melanchthon in Migne.]

I can finde no grounded reason to cause me to dissēt from the beleefe of our forelders.

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Thus when hee had spoken at length, wyth many other words mo: Syr sayd I, MarginaliaThe doctrine of the sacrament not new.it is certain that other before these haue written of this matter. Not by the way onely, and obiter, as doth for the most all the olde wryters, but euen ex professo, and their wholl bookes intreate of it alone, as Bertram. 

Commentary  *  Close

'Bertram' is Ratramnus of Corbie, a ninth-century theologian known, among other works, for his De Corpore et sanguine Domini, which emphasised the figurative nature of the elements of the Sacrament (1563, p. 929; 1570, p. 1590; 1576, p. 1357; 1583, p. 1427).

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Bertrā, said the Secretary, what man was he? & whom was he, 

Commentary  *  Close

In the first two editions, Bourne asks Ridley about Bertram: 'What man was he, and when was he?' (1563, p. 929; 1570, p. 1590). In the edition of 1576, this was mistakenly changed to 'What man was he and whom was he' (p. 1357); this was repeated in the next edition (1583, p. 1427).

and how do ye know? &c. with many questions.

Sir quoth I, I haue read hys booke: He proponeth the same which is now in controuersie, and aunswereth so dyrectly that no man may doubt but that he affirmeth, that þe substance of bread remaineth still in the Sacrament, and he wrote vnto Carolus magnus.

Mary (quoth he) marke for there is a matter. He wrote quoth he, ad Henricum, and not ad Carolum, for no Author maketh any such mention of Bertramus.

Yes quoth I, Trithemius in Catalogo illustrium scriptorum, speaketh of him. Trithemius was but of late tyme: but he speaketh quoth I of them that were of antiquitye. Here, after much talke of Bertram, what authors haue ye quoth M. Secretary to make of the sacrament a figure?

MarginaliaDoctours that make the sacramēt but a figure. Tertullianus. Gelasius. Origene.Sir quoth I, ye know (I thinke) that Tertullian in playn words speaketh thus: Hoc est Corpus, id est, figura Corporis mei. i. 

Latin/Greek Translations  *  Close
Tertullian
Foxe text citation

Hoc est Corpus, id est, figura Corporis mei.

[As in 1570, except that each instance ofcorpusreceives a capital initial letter.]

Foxe text translation

This is my body, that is to say, a figure of my body.

[As in 1570.]

Actual text of Tertullian Adversus Marcionem, CAP. X (Migne, P.L. Vol. 002, Col. 0459)

acceptum panem, et distributum discipulis, corpus illum suum fecit, Hoc est corpus meum dicendo Id est, figura corporis mei.

[Accurate identification, apart from the omission ofmeum dicendo.]

This is my body, that is to say, a figure of my body. And Gelasius sayth plainly that Substantia panis manet. i. 
Latin/Greek Translations  *  Close
Gelasius
Foxe text citation

Substantia panis manet

[As in 1570]

Foxe text translation

The substance of bread remayneth.

[As in 1570]

Actual text of Gelasius

[Cannot find in Migne (is it Gelasius I?)]

The substāce of bread remayneth. And Origē sayeth likewise, Quod sanctificatur secundum materiam, ingreditur stomachum & vadit in secessum. i. 
Latin/Greek Translations  *  Close
Origen
Foxe text citation

Quod sanctificatur secundum materiam, ingreditur stomachum & vadit in secessum.

Foxe text translation

That which is sanctyfied, as touching the matter or substance, passeth away into the draught.

[As in 1570]

Actual text of Origen

[Cannot trace in Migne or TLG.]

That which is sanctyfied, as touching the matter or substance, passeth away in to the draught. This when I had englished, M. Secretary sayd to me, you know very well as any man. &c. and here, if I would, I might haue ben set in a foolishe Paradise of hys commendation of my learning, and quòd essem vir multæ Lectionis. i. A man of muche reading. 
Commentary  *  Close

The English translations of passages from patristic fathers and from the Vulgate, which appear throughout this dialogue, were introduced in the 1570 edition.

But thys I woulde not take at hys hande. He set me not vp so hye, but I brought my selfe as low agayne: and here was much adoe.

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As for Melanctō (quoth I) whom M. Fecknam spake of, I maruell that ye will alledge hym, for we are more nye an agreement here in England, then the opinion of Melancthon to you: for in this poynt we al agree here, that there is in the sacrament but one material substance: & Melancthon as I weene, sayth there are two.

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Ye say truth quoth master Secretary: Melancthons opinion is so. But I pray you, ye haue read that the sacrament was in olde time so reuerenced, that many wre then forbidden to be present at the ministration therof. Catecumeni (quoth he) and many mo.

MarginaliaCeetchumeni and others went out at the ministration.Truth sir (quoth i.) there were called some Audientes, some Pœnitentes, some Catechumeni, & some Edergumeni, which were commaunded to depart.

Now (quoth he) then. And how can ye then make but a Fygure or a signe of the sacrament, as that booke which is set forth in my Lord of Canterburyes name. 

Commentary  *  Close

It is not clear to which book of Cranmer's Bourne is referring. He may have been citing Justas Jonas's catechism (STC 5992.5), which was produced under Cranmer's auspices. But, given the context, it is more probably a reference to Cranmer's Defence of the true and catholike doctrine of the sacrament of the body and bloode of Christ (STC 6000).

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MarginaliaThe booke of Catechisme. I wisse, ye can tel who made it, did not ye make it? and here was much murmuring of the rest, as though they would haue geuē me the glory of the writyng of the Booke, which yet ther was sayd of some there, to conteyne most haynous heresie that euer was.

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Master Secretary (quoth I) that booke was made of a great learned man, and hym which is able to doe the lyke again: as for me I ensure you (be not deceiued in me) I was neuer able to do or write any such like thing, he passeth me no les, then the learned master hys young scholler.

Now, here euery man would haue his saying, which I passe ouer, not much materiall for to tell. But sir quoth I, me thinkes it is not charitably done, to beare the people in hand that any man doth so lightly esteem the sacrament, as to make of it but a figure. For that [but] maketh it a bare figure without any more profit, which that booke doth often deny, as appeareth to the reader most plainly.

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Yes quoth he that they doe.

Syr, no quoth I, of a truth: and as for me, I ensure you I make no lesse of the sacrament then thus: I say whosoeuer receaueth the sacrament, he receyueth therwith eyther lyfe or death.

No quoth master Secretary, scripture sayth not so.

Syr, quoth I, although not in the same sound of words, yet it doth in the same sense, and saynt Augustine sayth, in the sound of words also: for Paul sayth: The bread which we break, is it not the partaking or felowship of the body of

Christ? MarginaliaAugust.And saint Augustine, Maduca vitam, Bibe vitam, 

Latin/Greek Translations  *  Close
St. Augustine, Sermones de Scripturis
Foxe text citation

Manduca vitam, Bibe vitam

Foxe text translation

Eate lyfe, drinke lyfe.

[As in 1570]

Actual text of St. Augustine, Sermones de Scripturis, Sermo CXXXI, De verbis Evangelii Joannis, cap. VI, 54-66 (Migne, P.L. Vol. 038, Col. 0729)

Illud bibere quid est, nisi vivere? Manduca vitam, bibe vitam: habebis vitam, et integra est vita.

[Accurate identification.]

i. eate lyfe, drinke lyfe.

Then sayd maister Pope, what can ye make of it when ye say. there is not the reall body of Christ? Which I doe beleue, &c. and I pray God I may neuer beleue other. How can it bring (as ye say) either lyfe or death, whē Christs body is not there?

Syr, quoth I, MarginaliaThe sacrament may bring lyfe without transubstantiation.when you heare Gods word truely preached, if ye do beleue it and abyde in it, ye shall and do receyue lyfe with all: and if ye do not beleue it, it doth bring vnto you death: and yet Christes body is still in heauen and not carnall in euery preachers mouth.

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I pray you tel me quoth he, how can you answer to this: Quod pro vobis tradetur: Which shal be geuen for you: was the figure of Christes body geuen for vs?

No sir quoth I, but the very body it selfe, wherof the sacrament is a sacramentall figure.

How say ye then quoth he, to, Quod pro vobis tradetur: Which shall be geuen for you.

Forsooth, (quoth I) Tertullians exposition maketh it playn, for he sayth: MarginaliaTertullianus.Corpus est figura corporis, i. 

Latin/Greek Translations  *  Close
Tertullian
Foxe text citation

Corpus est figura corporis

[As in 1570]

Foxe text translation

The body is a figure of the body.

[As in 1570]

Actual text of Tertullian, Adversus Marcionem (Migne, P.L. Vol. 002, Col. 0459)

Professus itaque se concupiscentia concupisse edere Pascha ut suum [indignum enim ut quid alienum concupisceret Deus], acceptum panem, et distributum discipulis, corpus illum suum fecit, Hoc est corpus meum dicendo, Id est, figura corporis mei.

[Accurate identification, although it is not a direct quotation, but rather a reference.]

The body is a figure of the body. Now put to, Quod pro vobis tradetur. Which shall be geuen for you, and it agreeth exceedinge well.

In fayth quoth he, I would geue xl. pound that ye were of a good opinion. For I ensure you I haue heard you, and had an affection to you.

I thanke you master Pope, for your hart and minde, and ye know quoth I, I were a very foole if I would in this matter dissent frō you, if that in my conscience the truth dyd not enforce me so to doe. For iwisse (as ye do perceiue, I trow) it is somewhat out of my way, if I woulde esteeme worldly gayne.

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What say ye, quoth he, to Cyprian? Doth he not say playnly, MarginaliaCyprian.Panis quem dedit Dominus non effigie sed natura mutatus omnipotentia verbi factus est caro? i. The Breade which the Lord dyd delyuer, being chaunged, not accordinge to the forme, but according to the nature therof, by the omnipotent word is made flesh. 

Commentary  *  Close

The English translations of passages from patristic fathers and from the Vulgate, which appear throughout this dialogue, were introduced in the 1570 edition.

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True Syr: so he doth say, and I answere euen the same which once by chaunce I preached at Paules Crosse in a Sermon, for the which I haue been as vniustly and as vntruely reported as any poore man hath been. 

Commentary  *  Close

In the dialogue Ridley refers to a Paul's Cross sermon he had delivered (1563, p. 930; 1570, p. 1591; 1576, p. 1357; 1583, p. 1428). The sermon was delivered in the first year of Edward VI's reign and is mentioned earlier in Foxe (1563, p. 855; not in any subsequent edition).

MarginaliaDoct Ridley falsely reported for a sermon of his at Paules. For there I, speaking of the sacrament, and inueyng agaynst them that esteemed it no better then a peece of bread, told euen þe same thing of Pœnitentes, Audientes, Catecumeni, Energumeni, that I spake of before: and I bad them depart as vnworthy to heare the mistery, and then I sayde to those that bee Sancti: Cypriā the Martir shal tel you how it is that christ calleth it, saying Panis est corpus, cibus, potus, caro, &c. id est. MarginaliaThe place of Saint Cyprian expoūded.Bread is the body, meat, drink, flesh, because that vnto this materyall substance is geuen the propertye of þe thing wher of it beareth the name: and this place then tooke I to vtter as the tyme would then suffer, that the materiall substance of bread dyd remayne. Master Fecknā (which as is reported to me) dyd bely me openly in the same matter at Pauls Crosse, heard all this my talke (as red as Scarlet in hys face) and herin answered me neuer one worde.

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You do know well, quoth M. Secretary, that Origines and Tertullian were not Catholicke but erred.

Syr, quoth I, there is none of all the Doctors that are holden in all poyntes, MarginaliaNone of all the Doctours holdē in all pointes. but are thought to haue erred in some thinges, But yet I neuer heard that it was eyther layd to Origens charge or to Tertulliā, þe euer they were thought to haue erred in this matter of the sacrament.

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What, quoth M. Chomley, late chiefe Iustice, doth not Christ say plainly, that it is his very flesh & his very bloud, and we must needes eate hym, or we can haue no life? Syr, quoth I: if you will heare how s. Augustine expoūdeth that place, you shall perceaue that you are in a wrong boxe. And when I began to tell s. Augustines minde in hys booke De doctrina Christiana: MarginaliaS. Augustine taketh the wordes of the sacrament figuratiuely by Bournes owne confession.Yea, yea, quoth M. Secretary. that is true, s. Augustine doth take it figuratiuely in deede,

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Forty yeares agoe quoth M, Fecknam, all were of one opinion in this matter,

Forty yeares ago (quoth I) all held that the Byshop of Rome was supreme head of the vniuersall Church.

What then? Was master Fecknam beginning to say &c. but M. Secretary tooke the tale, and sayd, that was but a positiue law.

A positiue law, quoth I? No Syr, he would not haue it so: for it is in hys Decrees, that he challēged it by Christes own worde. For hys Decree saith: MarginaliaDist. 21. Quamuis.Nullis Synodicis constitutis, ne Consiliis, sed viua voce Domini prælata est Ecclesia Romana omnibus Ecclesiis in toto Mundo: dicente Domino Petro, tu es Petrus: &c. The Church of Rome was aduaunced aboue all other Churches in the worlde, not by any Synodical constitutions, nor yet any coūsel, but by the

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liuely
IIIi.iij.
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