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1410 [1385]

Q. Mary. Disputation of M. Latimer at Oxford.

Marginalia1554. Aprill.should do there as they do. MarginaliaThe finall cause why the Lordes Supper was chiefly ordeyned. Feede (saith Peter) as much as ye may, the flocke of Christ: nay rather let vs sacrifice as much as we may, for þe flocke of Christ. If so be þe matter be as now men make it, I cā neuer woonder enough, that Peter would or could forget this office of sacrificing, which at this day is in such a price and estimation, that to feede is almost nothing with many. If thou cease from feeding the flocke, how shalt thou be taken? truly Catholike enough. But if thou cease from sacrificing and massing, how wyll that be taken? at the least I warrant thee, thou shalt be called an heretike. MarginaliaSacrificing taketh away preaching. And whence, I pray you, come these papistical iudgmentes? MarginaliaPreposterous iudgement of Papistes. Except perchaūce they thinke a man feedeth the flocke, in sacrificing for them: and then what needeth there any learned pastors? For no man is so foolish, but soone may he learne to sacrifice and masse it.

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Thus loe, I haue taken the more payne to write, because I refused to dispute, in consideration of my debilytye thereunto: that all men may knowe, howe that I haue so done not without great paynes, hauing not any man to helpe me, as I haue neuer before bene debarred to haue. O sir, you may chaunce to lyue tyll you come to this age and weaknes that I am of. MarginaliaM. Latimer found more audiēce with Kinges and Princes, then wyth rusticall divines.I haue spoken in my tyme before 2. kinges, more then one, two, or three houres together, without interruption: but nowe (that I maye speake the truth, by your leaue) I could not be suffered to declare my mynde before you, no, not by the space of a quarter of an houre, without snatches, reuilynges, checkes, rebukes, tauntes, such as I haue not fealt the like, in such an audience, al my life long. Surely it can not be, but an heynous offence that I haue geuen. But what was it? Forsooth I had spoken of the foure marybones of the Masse. The which kind of speaking, I neuer read to be a sinne agaynst the holy ghost.

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I could not be allowed to shewe what I meant by my Metaphor: But sir, now (by your fauour) I wyl tel your mastership what I meane.

The 4. Marybones of the Masse by M. Latimer expounded.
The first is the Popish consecration: which hath bene called a Gods body making.

The second is Transubstantiation.

The third is the Missall oblation.

The fourth, Adoration.

These chiefe and principall portions, partes, & poyntes belonging or incident to the masse, and most esteemed and had in price in the same, I cal the marybones of the masse, 

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Two other minor changes in the 1570 edition were deliberate. Foxe altered the word order of a sentence in Latimer's protestation, apparently to make it less stylistically awkward. In the first edition, the sentence reads: 'meaning by Marybones, the chief and principal portions ... and had in price the same' (1563, p. 980). In the later editions, this was changed to read: 'these cheefe and principal partes and poyntes ... I call þe marrowbones of the masse' (1570, p. 1623; 1576, p. 1385; 1583, p. 1455).

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which in deede you by force, might, and violence intrude in sound of wordes in some of the scripture, with racking and cramping, iniuryng, and wronging the same: but els in deede, plaine out of the scripture, as I am throughly perswaded: although in disputation I could now nothing do, to perswade the same to others, being both vnapt to study, and also to make a shewe of my former study, in such readines as should be requisite to the same.

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MarginaliaThe iudgement of M. Latimer of D. Weston.I haue heard much talke of master Doctor Weston to and fro, in my tyme: but I neuer knewe your person to my knowledge, til I came before you, as the Queenes maiesties Cōmissioner. I pray God sende you so right iudgement, as I perceiue you haue a great wyt, great learning, with many other qualities. God geue you grace euer well to vse thē, and euer to haue in remembrance, that he that dwelleth on high, looketh on the lowe thinges on the earth: MarginaliaPryde of D. Weston priuily touched.and that there is no counsel against the Lord: and also that this world hath bene, and yet is a tottering world: And yet againe, that though we must obey the princes: yet that hath this limitatiō, namely, in the Lord. MarginaliaObedience to princes hath his limitation. For who so doth obey them against the Lord, they be most pernitious to them, and the greatest aduersaries þt they haue: for they so procure Gods vengeaunce vpon them, if God onely be the ruler of thinges.

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There be some so corrupt in mind, the truth beyng taken from them, that they thinke gaynes to be godlynesse: Great learned men, and yet men of no learnyng, but of rayling and raging about questions and strife of wordes, MarginaliaKnowledge without Christ is mere ignoraunce.I call them men of no learning, because they knowe not Christ, how much els so euer they know. And on this sort we are wont to call great learned clarkes, being ignorant of Christ, vnlearned men: for it is nothing but plaine ignorance, to knowe many thynges without Christ: wheras who so knoweth Christ, the same hath knowledge enough, although in other knowledge he be to seeke. The Apostle S. Paul confesseth of him selfe to the Corinthians, that he did know nothing, but Iesus Christ crucified. MarginaliaMany there be which vnder pretense of Christ, darken the glory of Christ.Many men bable many things of Christ, which yet knowe not Christ: but pretendng Christ, do craftely colour and darkē his glory. Depart from such men, sayth þe Apostle saint Paul to Timothe.

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It is not out of the way to remember what S. Au-

gustine saith. The place where, I now wel remember not except it be against the Epistles of Petilyan: MarginaliaAugustine.Who soeuer 

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S. Augustine & Basiliu

The following information is kindly supplied by D H Frost of St David's Catholic College, Cardiff. Citations are derived from his work in progress onSacrament an Alter (SA), a Tudor Catholic eucharistic catena, drawn from Foxe's 1576 account of the Oxford Disputations, translated into Cornish and appended to the Cornish translation of Bishop Bonner's Homilies, BL Add. MS 46397.

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not in SA

Latimer: It is not out of the way to remember what S. Augustine saith. The place where, I now wel remember not except it be against the Epistles of Petilyan:Who soeuer(saith he)teacheth any thing necessarily to be beleeued, which is not contayned in the old or newe Testament, the same is accursed.Oh beware of this curse, if you be wise. I am much deceyued if Basilius haue not such like wordes.What soeuer(saith he)is besides the holy scripture, if the same be taught as necessaryly to be beleeued, that is sinne.

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I have not found the point to which Latimer alludes in the Answer to the Letter of Petilian, but there are other passages of St Augustine which make similar points - eg St Augustine of Hippo,De Bono Viduitatis, 2'What more can I teach you, than what we read in the Apostle? For holy Scripture setteth a rule to our teaching, that we dare not "be wise more than it behoveth to be wise;" but be wise, as himself saith, "unto soberness, according as unto each God hath allotted the measure of faith." (Rom 12:3) Be it not therefore for me to teach you any other thing, save to expound to you the words of the Teacher, and to treat of them as the Lord shall have given to me.' Then, in St Augustine of Hippo,De Doctrina Christiana, 2, 9.(See alsoCity of God,Book 9, Chapter 3.)

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St Basil the Great,Homiliae et Sermones, 15- PG 31, 463-472 may be the source of the second point, but I have not found it explicity there. The sermon headed in Migne by the words 'Homilia in illud,Attende tibi ipsi - Deut 15, 9' [PG 31, 215] may be a more likely candidate.

(saith he) teacheth any thing necessarily to be beleeued, which is not contayned in the old or newe Testament, the same is accursed. Oh beware of this curse, if you be wise. I am much deceyued if MarginaliaBasilius.Basilius haue not such like wordes. What soeuer (saith he) is besides the holy scripture, if the same be taught as necessaryly to be beleeued, that is sinne. Oh therefore take hede of this sinne.

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There be some þt speake many false things, more probable, and more like to the truth, then to the truth it selfe. Therefore Paul geueth a watch worde: Let no man (saith he) deceiue you with probabilitie & perswasions of words. But what meane you (saith one) by this talke, so far from the matter? Wel, I hope, good maisters, you wyl suffer an olde man, a litle to play the child, and to speake one thing twyse. Oh Lorde God, MarginaliaThe absurdities of the Papistes opened in abusing the Lordes haue chaunged the most holy Communion, into a priuate action: and you deny to the Laitie þe Lords cup, cōtrary to Christes cōmaundemēt, & you do blemish þe anūtiatiō of þe Lordes death tyll he come: For you haue chaunged þe cōmon Prayer called the diuine seruice, with the administration of the sacramentes, from the vulgare and knowen language, into a strange tongue, contrary to the wyl of the Lord reuealed in hys worde. God open the doore of your hart, to see the things you should see herein. I woulde as fayne obey my soueraigne as any in this Realme: but in these thinges I can neuer doe it wyth an vpright conscience. God be mercyfull vnto vs, Amen.

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Weston. Then refuse you to dispute? Wyl you here then subscribe?

Latimer. No good master, I pray you be good to an olde man. You may (if it please God) be once old, as I am: ye may come to this age, MarginaliaBut God saw it good that Westō neuer came to his age. and to this debilitie.

West. Ye sayd vpon saterday last, that ye could not finde the masse, nor the marybones thereof in your booke: but we wyl finde a masse in that booke.

Lati. No good maister doctor: ye can not.

West. What finde you then there?

Lati. Forsooth a Communion I finde there.

West. Which Communion, * Marginalia* By this first and second communion, he meneth the two bookes of publicke order set forth in king Edwardes daies, the one in the beginning, the other in the latter end of hys reigne. the first or the last?

Lati. I finde no great diuersitie in them: they are one supper of the Lord; but I like the last very wel.

West. Then the first was nought belike.

Lati. I do not wel remember wherin they differ.

West. Then cake bread & loafe bread are al one with you. MarginaliaD. Weston cauilleth agaynst the name of the Lordes supper.Ye cal it the supper of the lord: but you are deceiued in that: for they had done the supper before, and therfore the Scripture saith: Postquam cœnatum est, that is. After they had supped. For ye knowe, that saint Paul findeth fault with the Corinthians, for that some of them were drunken at this supper: and ye know no man can be drunken at your Communion.

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Lati. The first was called MarginaliaCœna Iudaica.Cœna Iudaica, that is: The Iewish supper, when they dyd eate the Paschall Lambe together: the other was called MarginaliaCœna Dominica.Cœna dominica, that is: The Lordes supper.

West. That is false, for MarginaliaChrysost. in 1. Cor. cap. 10.Chrysostome denyeth that. And saint Ambrose in cap. 10. prioris ad Corinthios saith, that Mysterium Eucharistiæ inter cœnandum datū, non est cœna dominica, that is: The mysterie of the sacrament, geuen as they were at supper, is not the supper of the Lord.

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And MarginaliaGreg. Nazianzenus.Gregorie Nazianzene sayth the same. Rursus Pasche sacra cum discipulis in cœnaculo ac post cœnam, dieq; vnica ante passionem celebrat. Nos verò ea in orationis domibus, et ante cœnam et post resurrectionem peragimus: that is, Agayne, he kept the holy feast of Passeouer with his disciples in the dyning chāber, after the supper, and one day before hys passion. But we keepe it, both in the churches and houses of prayer, both before the supper, and also after the resurrection.

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And that fyrst Supper was called Marginaliaἀγάπη. i. So were the feastes called, wont to be geuen to the poore.ἀγάπη: can you tell what that is?

Lat. I vnderstande no Greeke. Yet I thinke it meaneth charitie.

West. Wyl you haue all thing done that Christ dyd then? Why, then must the Priest be hanged on the morowe. And where find you, I pray you, that a woman should receiue the sacrament?

Lat. Wyll you geue me leaue to turne my booke? I finde it in the. xi. chapter to the Corinthians. I trow these be hys wordes: Probet autem seipsum homo. &c.

I pray you good master, what gender is homo? MarginaliaVVeston opposed in hys grammer.

West. Mary the common gender. Marginaliaδοκιμαζέτω δὲ ἄνθρωπος ἑαυτὸν

Cole. It is in the Greeke, ὀ ἄνθρωπος.

Hard. It is ἄνηρ, that is, uir.

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