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1413 [1388]

Queene Mary. Disputation of M. Latymer at Oxford.

MarginaliaAn. 1554. Aprill. Christ dwelleth in vs corporally.

Lat. The solution of this is in my Lord of Canterburies booke.

Smith. MarginaliaThe immodest behauiour of this Iacke scorner to be noted.Cyril was no papist, and yet these be his wordes: Christ dwelleth in vs corporally, but you say he dwelleth in vs spiritually.

Lat. I say both: that he dwelleth in vs both corporally and spiritually, according to his meaning: spiritually by fayth, and corporally by taking our fleshe vpon hym. For I remember I haue read this in my Lord of Canterburies booke.

West. For because your learnyng is let out to ferme, and shut vp in my Lord of Canterburies booke, I will recite vnto you a place of S. Ambrose, De apparatione ad Missam, where he saith: Videmus principem sacerdotem ad nos venientem, & offerentem sanguinem. &c. That is, We see the chiefe prieste commyng vnto vs, and offeryng bloud. &c.

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Likewise both MarginaliaAugust. in Psal. 38. Chrysost. De incomprehensibili Dei natura.Augustine in the. 38. Psal. & Chrysostome, concerning the incomprehensible nature of God, Tom. 3. say: Non solum homines. &c. 

Latin/Greek Translations  *  Close
Chrysostom. concerning the incomprehensible nature of God Tom. 3.

The following information is kindly supplied by D H Frost of St David's Catholic College, Cardiff. Citations are derived from his work in progress onSacrament an Alter (SA), a Tudor Catholic eucharistic catena, drawn from Foxe's 1576 account of the Oxford Disputations, translated into Cornish and appended to the Cornish translation of Bishop Bonner's Homilies, BL Add. MS 46397.

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SA 66r.4

Non solum homines. &c

Not translated in Foxe

Lat. I am not ashamed to acknowledge myne ignorance: and these testimonies are more then I can beare away

West. Then you must leaue some behind you for lacke of cariage.

Lat. But for MarginaliaChrysost. full of figuratiue speaches and Emphaticall loquutions.Chrysostome, he hath manye figuratiue speaches, and Emphatical loquutions, in many places, as in that whiche you haue nowe recited: but he sayth not, For the quicke and the dead: he taketh the celebration for the sacrifice.

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West. You shall heare MarginaliaChrisost. in Act. cap. 9.Chrysostome againe, vpon the. ix. chap. of the Actes. Quid dicis? Hostia in manibus sacerdotis. &c. He doth not call it a cup of wyne.

Lat. Ye haue mine answere there with you in a paper: and yet he calleth it not propitiatorium sacrificium. i. A propitiatorie sacrifice.

West. You shal heare it to be so: and I bring an other place of Chrysostome out of the same treatise: Non temerè ab Apostolis est institutum. &c.

West. He is too precious a thing for vs to offer: he offreth hym selfe.

West. Here in an other place of MarginaliaChrisost. ad populum Antioch. Hom. 69.Chrysostome to the people of Antioche, Homil. 69. and also ad Philippenses he saith, There should be a memorie and sacrifice for the dead.

Lat. I doo say that the holy Cōmunion beareth the name of a sacrifice, because it is a sacrifice memoratiue.

West. How say you to the sacrifice for the dead.

Lat. I say that it needeth not, or it booteth not.

west. MarginaliaAugust. Encherid. cap. 110.Augustine in his Enchiridion the. 110. chap. saith: Non est negandum defunctorum animos pietate suorum viuentium releuari, quum pro illis sacrificium Mediatoris offertur: that is: We must not denye, that the soules of the dead are relieued by the deuotion of their frends which are liuyng, when the sacrifice of the Mediator is offered for the. Where he proueth the verity of Christes body, and praying for the dead. MarginaliaAugust. falsly belied to say Masse for his Mother.And it is saide, that the same Austine sayde masse for his mother.

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Lat. But that masse was not lyke yours, which thing doth manifestly appeare in hys writings, which are against it in euery place. And Augustine is a reasonable man, he requireth to be beleued no further, then he bringeth scripture for his proufe, and agreeth with gods word.

West. In the same place he proueth a propiciatorie sacrifice, and that vpon an altar, and no Oyster boord. MarginaliaThe blasphemous mouth of Doct. Weston.

Lat. It is the Lordes table, & no Oyster boord. It may bee called an altar, & so þe doctors call it in many places: but ther is no propiciatorie sacrifice, but only Christ. The Doctors might be deceiued in some poyntes, though not in al things. * Marginalia* Doctores legendi sunt cum venia. I beleue them whē they say well.

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Cole. Is it not a shame for an olde man to lye? You say, you are of the old fathers faith where they say wel, and yet ye are not.

Lat. I am of their faith when they say wel. I referre my selfe to my Lord of Canterburies booke wholy herein. 

Commentary  *  Close

The text Latimer repeatedly cited as 'Cranmer's book' was Thomas Cranmer, A defence of the true and catholike doctrine of the sacrament of the body and bloud of Christ (STC 6000-6002).

Smith. Then you are not of Chrysostomes fayth, nor of s. Augustines faith.

Lat. I haue said when they said wel, and bring scripture for them, I am of their faith, and further Augustine requireth not to be beleued.

West. Origen. Hom. 13. vpon Leuitic.

Lat. I haue but one word to say: Panis sacramentalis, the Sacramentall bread, is called a Propitiation, because it is a Sacrament of the Propitiation. What is your vocation?

West. My vocation is at this time to dispute, otherwise I am a priest, and my vocation is to offer.

Lat. Where haue you that authoritie giuen you to offer?

West. Hoc facite: Do this, for facite in that place is taken for offerte, that is, offer you.

Lat. MarginaliaFacere, for sacrificare, with Doct. Weston.Is Facere, nothing but sacrificare, to sacrifice? why, then no man must receiue the sacrament but priestes only: for there may none offer but priests.

Ergo, there may none receyue but priestes.

West. Your argument is to be denyed.

Lat. Did Christ then offer him selfe at his supper?

Pye. MarginaliaIf Christ offered hym selfe at the Supper,, and the next day vpon the Crosse, then was Christ twise offered.Yea, he offered him selfe for the whole word.

Lat. Then, if this Woord (Facite) Doo ye, signifie Sacrificate, Sacrifice ye: it foloweth, (as I saide) that none but priestes onely ought to receiue the Sacrament, to whom it is onely lawfull to sacrifice: and where finde you that, I pray you?

West. Fourty yeare agone, whither could you haue gone to haue found your doctrine?

Lat. The more cause we haue to thanke God, that hath now sent the light into the world.

West. MarginaliaWestons raylyng.The light? Nay, light and leud preachers: for you could not tel what you might haue: Ye altered and changed so often your Communions and your altars: and al for this one ende, to spoile and robbe the church.

Lat. These thynges perteyne nothyng to me. I muste not aunsweare for other mens deedes, but onely for myne owne.

West. Well, Maister Latimer, this is our entent, to wyll you well, and to exhort you to come to your self, and remember that without Noes Arke there is no health. 

Commentary  *  Close

Weston's phrase 'without Noes Arke, there is no health' (1563, p. 985; 1570, p. 1627; 1576, p. 1388; 1583, p. 1459) is a reference to the common medieval image of the church as Noah's ark. Weston is saying that there is no salvation outside the church. In fact, since Weston's remark was almost certainly made in Latin, 'health' is probably a misleading translation of 'salvus', which also means salvation.

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Remember what they haue bene that were the beginners of your doctrine: none but a fewe flying Apostataes, runnyng out of Germanie for feare of the fagot. Remember what they haue bene which haue set forth the same in this Realme: A sort of flyngbraynes and light heades, which were neuer constant in any one thyng, as it was to be seene in the turnyng of the Table, where lyke a sort of Apes, MarginaliaD. Westons Apes haue tayles. they could not tell whiche waye to turne their tayles, looking one day West and an other day East, one that way, and an other this way. They wyll be like (they say) to the Apostles, they wyll haue no Churches. A houell is good inough for them. They come to the Communion with no reuerence. They get them a Tankarde, and one saith, I drinke, and I am thankfull: the more ioye of thee saith an other. MarginaliaBlasphemous lyes of D. Westō sitting in Cathedra pestilentiæ. And in them was it true that Hyllary sayth: Annuas & menstruas de deo fides facimus. i. We make euerye yeare and euery moneth a faith. MarginaliaWho be these, or where be they M. Oblocutor, that will be like the Apostles that will haue no Churches that be runnagates out of Germany that gette thē tankardes? that make monthlye faythes? that worship not Chrst in all his Sacramentes? Speake truth man and shame the deuil. A runnagate Scot 
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The 'runnagate Scot' to whom Weston refers (in 1563, p. 985; 1570, p. 1627; 1576, p. 1388; 1583, p. 1459) is Alexander Alane (or Alesius) who translated portions of the first Edwardian prayer book.

dyd take awaye the adoration or worshippyng of Christe in the Sacrament: by whose procurement that heresie was put into the last Cōmunion booke: so much preuailed that one mans authoritie at that tyme. You neuer agreed with the Tygurines or Germanes, or with the Churche, or with your selfe. Your stubbornes commeth of a vayne glory whiche is to no purpose: for it wyl do you no good when a fagot is in your beard. And we see all by your owne confession, how litle cause you haue to be stubborne: for your learnyng is in feoffees hold. The Queenes grace is mercyfull, if ye wyl turne.

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Lat. You shall haue no hope in me to turne: I pray for the Queene dayly euen from the bottome of my hart, that shee may turne from this religion.

West. Here you all see the weakenes of heresie against the truth: he denyeth al truth, and al the old fathers.

HEre all good Readers may see howe this glorious Prolocutour triumpheth: 

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In the edition of 1563 Foxe added descriptions of the beginning of Latimer's disputation (1563, p. 978; 1570, p. 1622; 1576, p. 1384; 1583, p. 1454) and the conclusion (1563, p. 985; 1570, p. 1627; 1576, p. 1389; 1583, p. 1459); these almost certainly came from another eyewitness.

but whether he hath the victorie or no, that I suppose they haue not yet, neyther heard nor seene. And geue that he had the victorie, yet what great marueyle was it, disputyng as he dyd, Non sine suo Theseo:  
Commentary  *  Close

Foxe added a classical tag - 'non sine suo Theseo' - to the conclusion of Latimer's disputation (1563 p. 985; 1570, p. 1627; 1576, p. 1388; 1583, p. 1459).

that is, not wthout his tipplyng cuppe standyng at hys elbowe all the tyme of his disputation, not without a priuie notyng and smyling of them that behelde the matter, but especially at that tyme, when Doctour Ridley disputyng with one of the Opponents, the sayd Prolocutor tooke the cuppe and holding it in his hande, sayd to the Opponent: MarginaliaVrge hoc quoth Weston, with his beerepot Vrge hoc, vrge hoc: Nam hoc facit pro nobis. In which wordes as he moued no litle matter of laughter to the beholders thereof: so I thought here also not to leaue the same vnmentioned, somwhat also to delight the Reader withal, after his tedious wearynes in reading the story therof.

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¶ To the Reader.  
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In the 1570 edition, Foxe also added a concluding note to the formal disputations, addressed to the reader, emphasising how arbitrary, disorganised and unfair they were to Cranmer, Ridley and Latimer (see textual variant 64). He also printed, in full, a quotation from Cyprian which had been discussed during the debate (see textual variant 63).

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And thus hast thou (louyng Reader) the whole action and stage of this Doctourly disputation shewed foorth vnto thee against these three woorthye Confessours and Martyrs of the Lorde, wherein thou mayest beholde the disordered vsage of the Vniuersitie men, the vnmannerly maner of the Shoole, the rude tumulte of the multitude,

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