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1415 [1391]

Queene Mary. A fruitefull Dialogue betweene Custome and Truthe.

Veri. Well, but when gaue Christe the Sacrament to hys Disciples? before he arose from death or after?

Cust. You know your selfe he gaue it before his resurrection, the night before he suffered hys Passion.

Veritie. Why then, me thinketh he gaue the Sacrament at that time, when his body was not spirituall.

Cust. Euen so.

Veri. And was euery portion of the Sacrament delt to the Apostles, and receaued into their mouthes the very reall and substantiall body of Christ?

Cust. Yea doubtles.

MarginaliaThe Popes doctrine repugnant to itselfe.Veri. Marke well what ye haue said, for you haue graunted me great repugnance. First you say that no body being not spiritual can be in sundry places at once. Then say you that at the maundy Christes body was not spirituall: and yet hold you that he was there present visible before the Apostles eyes, and in ech of theyr handes and mouthes all at one time: which graunts of yours are not agreeable. But I will gather a better and a more formall reason of youre wordes, in this sort.

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Fe-No body being reall, naturall, and organical, and not
spirituall, can be in many places at once.
ri-Christes body in the Sacrament was in the Apostles
handes and mouthes at one time, which were manye
son.Ergo, Christes body in the sacrament was not a reall,
naturall, and organicall body, but spirituall. 
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An extremely simplistic view of the Catholic doctrine of the Eucharist is presented (or rather, in this case, not presented).

MarginaliaThe Papistes though they be conuicted, yet they will not beleue.Cust. In deede you haue driuen me into the straites before I was ware of you, and I knowe not howe I may escape your handes honestly. But the best refuge that I haue, is thys, that I will not beleeue you.

Veri. I desire you not to geue credence to me. Beleeue the worde of God, yea beleue your owne beliefe, for they bothe witnesse againste you that Christes body is taken vp into heauen, and there shal remaine vntil he come to Iudge.

Cust. Tush, what speake you of the word of God? There be many darke sayings therein, which euerye man can not attaine to.

Veri. I graunt you there be certaine obscure places in the scripture, yet not so obscure but that a man wyth the grace of God may perceiue: for it was wrytten not for Aungels, but for men. But as I vnderstand MarginaliaCustome medleth but little with Scripture.Custome medleth but litle with Scripture. 

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Protestants were most reluctant to acknowledge that the Bible was obscure in numerous places, whether due to the difficulties of translation or the meaning of certain words or passages in their contexts; Catholics recognized Scripture's opaqueness to the general reader in certain texts, and stated that the Church had ultimate authority - given to it by Christ - in their interpretation, using the resources of Church tradition, including the determination of General Councils and the writings of the Church Fathers, in sharp contrast to Verity's remark that 'Custom [tradition] meddles but little with Scripture'. In fact, as noted earlier, tradition and scripture were inextricably linked as the two modes of Christ's one revelation.

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How say you by S. Augustine, S. Hierom, S. Ambrose, what if they stand on our side? 
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Verity uses the strategy of employing quotes from numerous Fathers of the Church upheld as some of the leading theologians of Catholicism to dismiss Catholic claims regarding the Eucharist. This strategy has its draw-backs, i.e., in the case of the Venerable Bede, whose Ecclesiastical History of the English People possessed numerous accounts of Catholic worship and piety which the Reformers rejected.

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Cust. No, no, I know them well inough.

Veri. So wel as you know them, for all old acquaintance, if they be called to witnesse, they will geue euidence against you. For S. Augustine commonly in euery of his bookes, but chiefly in an Epistle to his frende Dardanus, MarginaliaAugust. ad Dardanum.declareth that Christes body is placed in one roume. I maruell you be not nearer of his counsel. His words are these: Noli dubitare ibi nunc esse hominem Christum Iesum, vnde venturus est. Memoriter recole & fideliter crede Christianam confessionem: quoniam resurrexit, ascendit in cœlum, sedet a dextris Dei patris, nec aliundè quam indè venturus est, ad viuos mortuos iudicandos. Et venturus est in eadem corporis substantia: cui immortalitatem dedit, naturam non abstulit. Secundum hanc formam non est putandus vbiue diffusus. Cauendum enim est, ne ita diuinitatem astruamus hominis, vt humanitatem amittamus Dei. i. Do not dout the man Iesus Christ to be there, frō whence he shall come. And remember well, and faithfully beleeue the Christian confession, that he is risen, ascended into heauen, sitteth at the righte hand of God the father, and from thence shal come & from no other place, to iudge the quicke and the dead. And shall come in the same substaunce of body, to the which he gaue immortality, and tooke not the nature from it. After this forme he is to be thought not to be dispersed in all places, for we must beware so to defend his Diuinitie, that we destroy not his humanitie. And in an other place of the same Epistle. MarginaliaAugust ibid. Vna persona Deus & homo, & vtrumue est vnus Christus. Vbiue per id quod Deus, in cœlo autem per id quod homo. Likewise vpon the 14. Psalme. MarginaliaAugust in Psal. 14. Donec sæculum finiatur sursum est Dominus: sed etiam hic nobiscum est veritas Domini. Corpus enim in quo resurrexit, in vno loco esse oportet, veritas autem eius vbique diffusa est. i. While the world shall last, the Lorde is aboue, and also the veritye of the Lorde is with vs. For the body wherein he rose againe must be in one place. But the verity of him is euery where dispearsed. In like manner wryteth MarginaliaDamasus.Damasus an olde Byshop of Rome in his Credo. Deuictis mortis imperijs, cum ea carne in qua natus, & passus est, & resurrexit, ascendit in cœlum, manente eadem natura carnis in qua natus & passus est. S. Ambrose wryting vppon the 10. chapter of Luke recordeth the same: MarginaliaAmbros. in 10. cap. Luc. Ergo, nec supra terram, nec in terra, nec secundum terram quærere debemus Dominum, si volumus inuenire. Non enim supra terram quæsiuit qui stantem ad Dei dextram vidit. Maria quæ-rebat in terra tangere Christum & non potuit. Stephanus tetigit quia quærebat in cœlo. i. Wherefore, neither aboue the earth, nor vppon the earth, nor according to the earth we oughte to seeke the Lorde, if we wil finde him: For he did not seeke hym aboue the earth, which did see him sitting at the right hande. And Marie sought vppon the earth to touch Christ and coulde not. Steuen touched hym, because he soughte hym in heauen. S. Hierome in an Epistle to Marcella, MarginaliaHieron. ad Marcellam. prooueth that the bodye of Christe must needes be contained in some place, for he sayeth: Veri Dei est vbiue esse: veri hominis alicubi esse. i. The property of God is to be euery where, the propertie of man is to be in one place. MarginaliaHieron.The same Hierome in an other place calleth it a foolish thing to seeke for him in a narowe place, or in a corner, which is the lyghte of all the worlde: Stultum est eum paruo in loco, vel abscondito quærere, qui totius mundi est lumen .i. Foolishnesse it is, in a smal place or in a hidde corner to seeke hym which is the lyghte of all the whole worlde. MarginaliaOrigines.Origine sayeth likewise: Audiendi non sunt qui Christum demonstrant in ædibus. i. Thay are not to be heard, which shewe Christ in houses. The same also recordeth Beda, MarginaliaBeda in 17. cap. Ioan.wryting vpon these woordes of Christe: Now a litle while shal you see me. He speaketh in Christes person. Therefore (sayeth he) shall you see me but a little while after my resurrection, because I will not still abide in the earth bodily, but in the manhoode which I haue taken, will ascende vp to heauen. What needeth more woordes. All the olde fathers witnesseth the same. You may by these soone iudge the rest. Nowe to retourne to the matter, seeing that the woorde of God in many and sundrye places, the Credo, and the abridgement of the faith, seeing all the olde fathers doe constantly agree in one, that the body of Christ is ascended into heauen, and there remaineth at the right hande of the father, and cannot be more then in one place, MarginaliaThe Sacrament is not the reall body of Christ and why.I doe conclude that the Sacrament is not the body of Christ: first because it is not in heauen, neyther sitteth at the Fathers right hande: moreouer, because it is in an hundreth, thousande boxes 

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'Boxes': tabernacles or pyxes used for reserving the Sacrament.

, where as Christes bodye filleth but one place. Furthermore, if the bread were turned into the body of Christe, then woulde it necessarily followe, that sinners and vnpenitent persones receiue the body of Christ. 
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The Protestant reply to the Catholic view regarding whether the wicked actually receive Christ's body and blood. Catholics would say they do, but to their own condemnation. Protestants would say that faith is necessary to truly receive the sacrament, and since the wicked cannot have faith, they receive merely bread. The latter stance rests upon Luther's doctrine of justification by faith alone: one cannot possess faith and be a graver sinner at the same time. Catholics responded that one could, the greatest example being the devil, who knew God and yet rejected God.

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Cust. Marie 

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'Marie': contraction of a mild oath - 'by Saint Mary'.

, and so they do. For Paule saith plainly, that they receiue the body of Christ to their owne confusion.

MarginaliaThe wicked receiue not the body of Christ.Veri. No not so. These are not Paules woordes, but hee sayeth: Who so eateth of this bread, and drinketh of thys cuppe vnworthely, eateth and drinketh his owne condemnation, not iudging the bodye of the Lorde. Heere hee calleth it in playne woordes breade. And althoughe the Sacramente be very bread, yet doeth the iniurie redounde to the body of Christ. As if a man breake the kynges Mace, or treade the broade Seale vnder his foote, although hee haue broken and defaced nothynge but siluer and waxe. Yet is the iniurie the Kinges, and the doer shall be taken as a Traitour. MarginaliaAmbrosius.Saint Ambrose declareth the meaninge of Saint Paule by these woordes. Reus est corporis Domini, qui pœnas dabit mortis Christi, quoniam irritam fecit mortem Domini. The cause of the ordinance therof was the remembraunce of the death of Christe, which who so forgetteth, receiueth the Sacrament to their condemnation. MarginaliaAugustinus.That same witnesseth S. Augustine. MarginaliaThe place of S. Paule, of receiuing vnworthely, expounded.For the Sacrament, sayeth he, is an outwarde token of loue and charitie. For like as many graines of corne are become one pece of bread, euen so they that receiue it ought to be one. Then sayeth hee. Mysterium pacis ac vnitatis nobis Christus in mensa sua consecrauit. Quid accepit mysterium vnitatis, & non seruat vnitatem, non mysterium accepit pro se, sed testimonium contra se. Hee that readeth the Gospel, wherein is declared the passion and death of Christe, and liueth contrary to the Gospell, shall doubtlesse be the more giltie of the death of Christe, because hee heareth and readeth the word of God, and regardeth it not. In a certaine countrey the maner is, that when the Gospell is read, the king shall stand vp with a naked sword in his hand, declaring therby that he beareth his sword in defence of the Gospell. But if he himselfe oppresseth the Gospell, he beareth the sword against himself, for the Gospel shal turne to his iudgement, and condemnation. So wil Christ so much more extremely punish a manne which knowing him selfe to be wicked and without repentance, and therefore none of the flocke of Christe, yet notwithstanding will impudently creepe into the company of Christian men, & receiue the Sacramentes with them, as though he were one of the nomber. And this meant S. Paule by the vnworthy receiuing of the Sacrament of Christes body. Wherefore a man maye vnworthely take the Sacrament, and be giltie of the death of Christe, although he receiue not Christes body into hys mouthe, & chawe it with his teeth. But what if I prooue that euerye Massing priest is giltie of the body and bloud of Christ?

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Cust. I dare say, you can not prooue it.

Veri. But if I do prooue it, will you beleeue me.

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