Critical Apparatus for this Page
View an Image of this PageCattley Pratt ReferencesCommentary on the Text
Names and Places on this Page
None
1470 [1446]

Queene Mary. Disputation of Doctor Ridley Bishop of London at Oxford.

this present, through the trouble and alteration of the state of the Realme. MarginaliaB. Ridley for lacke of equall indifferency appealeth to almighty God.But if this appeale may not be graunted to me vpon earth, then do I flye (euen as to my onely refuge and alone hauen of health) to the sentence of the eternall iudge, that is, of þe almighty God, to whose most merciful iustice towardes his & most iust mercifulnes, I doe wholly commit my selfe and all my cause, nothing at all despayring of the defence of mine Aduocate and alone Sauiour, Iesus Christ, to whome, with the euerlasting Father, and the holy Spirit, the sanctifier of vs all, be now, and for euer, all honour and glory, Amen.

[Back to Top]

Albeit this learned 

Commentary  *  Close

In the 1570 edition, Foxe inserted a note making clear a fact which had gone unremarked in previous editions: that Ridley had not been allowed to read his prepared statements (the three propositions together with supporting arguments) which Foxe nevertheless printed (see textual variant 57). Since this material was printed in the Rerum and in all editions but had not been part of the disputation, this is further corroboration that Foxe's account of Ridley's disputation was not based on the notaries' transcripts of the disputations.

[Back to Top]
Byshop was not suffered to reade all that is aboue prefixed before the Disputations, yet because he had it then ready, and offered it vp to the Prolocutour after the Disputations & sentence pronounced: I thought heere the place not vnmeete to annexe the same together with the rest. Now let vs heare the Arguments and aunsweres betweene Doctour Smith and him.

[Back to Top]
¶ D. Smith beginneth to oppose.

SMith. You haue occasioned me to go otherwise to worke with you, then I had thought to haue done. Me seemed you did in your supposition abuse the testimonies of scripture concerning the Ascension of Christ, to take away hys presence in the Sacrament, as though this were a strong Argument to inforce your matter withall:

[Back to Top]

MarginaliaSmithes argument.Christ did ascend vnto heauen.

Ergo, he is not in the Sacrament.

Now therefore I will go about to disproue this reason of yours.

Christes Ascension is no let to his reall presence in the Sacrament.

Ergo, you are deceiued, whereas you do grounde youre selfe vpon those places.

MarginaliaAunswere. Rid. You import as though I had made a strong Argument by Christes going vp into heauen. But howsoeuer mine Argument is made, you collect it not rightly. For it doth not only stay vpon his Ascension, but both vpon hys Ascension, and his * abiding Marginalia* The veritie of M. Ridleyes answere touching the reall being of Christ in earth to be restrained by his ascending and abiding in heauen, standeth vpon a necessitie, whiche we call [Necessitas consequentiæ] by thys demonstration:

Da-
Euery naturall body must necessarily
be contayned in his pecular and cer-
taine place.
ri- Christes body is a naturall body:
j.
Ergo, Christes body not to be in one
certaine place at once contayned, it is
impossible according to the rule: Om-
nes propositiones de impossibili & de
necesse equipollent dicto dissimiliter se
habenti, & modo similiter.
there also.

[Back to Top]

Smith. Christes going vp to heauen, and his abiding there, hinder not his reall presence in the Sacrament.

Ergo, you are deceiued.

Rid. Of Christes reall presence there may be a double vnderstanding, if you take the reall presence of Christ according to the reall and corporal substance which he tooke of the virgine: that presence being in heauen, cā not be on the earth also. But if you meane a reall presence, secūdum rem aliquam quæ ad corpus Christi pertinet. i. according to some thing that appertaineth to Christes body, certes the Ascension and abiding in heauen are no let at all to that presence. Wherefore Christes body after that sort is heere present to vs in the Lords supper: by grace I say as Epiphanius speaketh it.

[Back to Top]

West. I will cut off from hencefoorth all equiuocation and doubt. For whensoeuer we speake of Christes body, wee meane that which he tooke of the Virgin.

Rid. Christes Ascension and abiding in heauen can not stand with this presence.

MarginaliaArgument. Smith. Christ appeared corporally and really on the earth for all his Ascension and continuall abode in heauen vnto the day of Dome.

Ergo, his Ascension and abiding in heauen, is no let to his reall presence in the Sacrament.

MarginaliaAunswere. Rid. Maister Doctour, this Argument is nothing worth I do not so straightly tye Christ vp in heauen, that he may not come into the earth at his pleasure. For when he will, he may come downe from heauen, and be on the earth, as it liketh himselfe. Howbeit I do affirme that it is not possible for him to be both in heauen and earth at one tyme.

[Back to Top]

Smith. Marke I pray you my Maisters, diligently that be here, what he aunswereth. First he saith, that the sitting of Christ at the right hande of his father, is a let to the reall presence of his body in the Sacrament: and then afterward he flyeth from it agayne.

Rid. I woulde not haue you thinke that I do imagine or dreame vpon any such maner of sitting, as these men heere sit in the Schoole.

Smith. Ergo, it is lawfull for Christ then to be heere present on the earth, when he will himselfe.

Rid. Yea when he will, it is lawfull indeede.

Smith. Ergo, his ascending into heauen, doth not restrayne his reall presence in the Sacrament.

Rid. I do not gaynesay, but that it is lawfull for hym to appeare on the earth, when he wil: but proue you þt he wil. MarginaliaChristes abode in heauen is no let for him to appeare on earth when he will, but whether he wil, that must be proued. Againe it is one thing to appeare on earth, an other still in the Sacrament, and to be present the same time with his body in heauen, whē he is bodely present in earth.

[Back to Top]

Smith. Then your aunswere dependeth vppon the will of Christ, I perceiue, Therfore I will ioyne agayn with you in this short argument.

Christ, albeit hee doth alway abide in heauen after hys ascension, was seene really and corporally on the earth.

Ergo, not withstanding his Ascension and continuall sitting at the right hand of the father, hee may be really and corporally in the sacrament.

Ryd. If the Notaries should so recorde your Argument, as you haue framed it, you peraduenture woulde be ashamed thereof hereafter.

Smith. Christ after his Ascention was seen really and corporally vpon the earth.

Ergo, notwithstanding his Ascention and abiding with his father, he may be corporally in the Sacrament.

Ryd. I graunt the antecedent: but I deny the consequent.

Smith. Do you graunt the antecedent?

Ryd. Yea I graunt the antecedent. I am content to let you haue so muche. Because I knowe that there be certayne auncient fathers of that opinion. I am well content to let you vse that proposition as true. And I will frame the argument for you.

He was seene on earth after his Ascension, Ergo &c.

Smith. Nay, nay, I will frame it my selfe.

Christ after his Ascension was seene really and corporally on earth, albeit he do abide in heauen continually:

Ergo, notwithstanding his Ascension and continuall abyding at the right hand of the father, he may be really and corporally on the earth.

MarginaliaChristes continuall sitting in heauen expended. Rid. Let vs first agree about the continuall sitting at the right hand of the father.

Smith. Doth he so sit at the right hand of his father, that he doth neuer forsake the same?

Rid. Nay I do not binde Christ in heauen so straitly. I see you go about to beguile me 

Cattley Pratt  *  Close
Cattley/Pratt, VI, Addenda, ref. page 481, line 8 from the bottom

The first edition, p. 964, has "to craft with your equivocations:" Halliwell records "craft" from Palsgrave as meaning "to deal craftily."

wt your equiuocations. Such equiuocatiōs are to be distincted. If you meane by his sitting in heauen, to reigne with his father, hee may be both in heauen and also in earth. But if ye vnderstande his sitting to be after a corporall manner of sitting, so is hee alwayes permanent in heauen. MarginaliaChrist cannot be both corporally here, and corporally also in heauen at one tyme.For Christ to be corporally here on earth, when corporally he is resident in heauen, is cleane contrary to the holy scriptures, as Augustine saith: Corpus Christi est in cœlo, sed veritas eius vbiq; diffusa est. i. The body of Christ is in heauen: but his truth is dispersed in euery place.

[Back to Top]

Now if continually he abide in heauen after the maner of his corporall presence, then his perpetual abiding there, stoppeth or letteth that the same corporall presence of hym cannot be in the sacrament.

Smith. Act. 3. We read that Christ shal sit perpetually at the right hand of God, vnto the consummacion of the worlde.

West. I perceaue you are come here to this issue, whether the bodye of Christ may be together both in earth and in heauen. I will tell you, that Christ in very deede, is both in earth and in heauen together and at one time, both one & the same naturall Christ after the veritie and substaunce of his very body. Ergo, &c.

[Back to Top]

Rid. I deny the Antecedent.

West. I proue it by 2. witnesses. First by Chrisost. hom. 17. ad Hebræos. Nōnè per singulos dies offerim9? Offerimus quidē, sed recordationē facientes mortis eius. Et vna est hæc hostia, nō multæ. Et quomodo vna, & non multæ quæ semel oblata est in sancto sanctorum: Hoc autem sacrificium exemplar est illius: id ipsum semper offerimus, nec nunc quidem alium agnum, crastina alium, sed semper eundem ipsum. Proinde vnum est hoc sacrificium: alioqui hac ratione, quoniam in multis locis offertur, multi Christi sunt. Nequaquam, sed vnus vbiq; est Christus &9& hic plenus existens, & illic plenus, vnum Corpus, i. MarginaliaChrisost Hom. 17. ad Hebræos.Do we not offer euery day? We do so in deede: but doing it for the remembraunce of his death. And this offering is one and not many. And howe is it one, and not many whiche was offred in the holy place? This sacrifice is a paterne of that: The self same we alwaies offer: Not now as offering one Lambe to day, and an other to morowe, but alwaies one & the same Lambe. Wherfore here is but one sacrifice: for els by this meanes, seeing there be many sacrifices in many places be there many Christes? not so, but one Christ in al places, both perfect here and perfect there, one onely body. Now thus I argue.

[Back to Top]

MarginaliaArgument.We offer one thing at all times.

There is one Christ in all places, both here compleet, and there complete:

Ergo, by Chrisostome there is one body both in heauen and earth.

MarginaliaAunswere. Rid. I remember the place well. These thinges make nothing against me.

West. One Christ is in all places, here full and there full.

Rid.
Go To Modern Page No:  
Click on this link to switch between the Modern pagination for this edition and Foxe's original pagination when searching for a page number. Note that the pagination displayed in the transcription is the modern pagination with Foxe's original pagination in square brackets.
Find:
Type a keyword and then restrict it to a particular edition using the dropdown menu. You can search for single words or phrases. When searching for single words, the search engine automatically imposes a wildcard at the end of the keyword in order to retrieve both whole and part words. For example, a search for "queen" will retrieve "queen", "queene" and "queenes" etc.
in:  
Humanities Research Institute  *  HRI Online  *  Feedback
Version 2.0 © 2011 The University of Sheffield