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1479 [1455]

Queene Mary. Disputation of M. Latimer at Oxford.

my fayth: for I am not able to dispute, & afterwardes doe your pleasure with me.

¶ The protestation of mayster Hugh Latimet, geuen vp in writing to Doctor Weston. 
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Cattley/Pratt, VI, Appendix, ref. page 501, line 18

Strype (Mem. III. i. 375) observes that "Foxe's copy of Latimer's protestation is very imperfect, and many mistakes made, and many things omitted." He accordingly in his Appendix, No. XXXIV. supplies a better from the Foxian MSS.

The conclusions whereunto I must aunswere, are these.

MarginaliaThe three conclusions.1 The first is, that in the sacramēt of the Aultar, by the vertue of Gods word pronounced by the Priest, there is really present, the naturall body of Christ, conceiued of the virgin Mary, vnder the kindes of the appearaunces of bread and wine: and in like maner his bloud.

2 The second is, that after consecration, there remaineth no substaunce of bread and wyne, nor none other substaunce, but the substance of God and man.

3 The third is, that in the Masse there is the liuely sacrifice of the church, which is propiciable, as wel for the sins of the quicke, as of the dead.

MarginaliaThe aunsweres of M. Latimer geuen vp in writing concerning the questions aforesaid.COncerning the first conclusion, me thinketh it is sette forth with certayn new found termes, that be obscure, and doe not sound according to the speach of the scripture. Howbeit, howsoeuer I vnderstand it, this I do aunswere playnely, though not without perill: I aunswere (I say) that to the right celebration of the Lordes supper, there is no other presence of Christ required, then a spirituall presence: and this presence is sufficient for a Christian man, as a presence by which we abide in Christ, and Christ abideth in vs, to the obteining of eternall life, if we perseuer. MarginaliaThe presence of Christ in the sacrament, how it is a reall presence.And this same presence may be called most fitly, a reall presence, that is, a presence not fayned, but a true and a faythfull presence. Which thing I here rehearse, least some Sycophant or scorner should suppose me with the Anabaptistes, to make nothing els of the Sacrament, but a naked and a bare signe. As for that, which is fayned of many concerning theyr corporall presence, I for my part take it but for a papisticall inuention, and therfore thinke it vtterly to be reiected.

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MarginaliaAnswere to the 2. conclusion.Concerning the seconde conclusion, I dare be bolde to say, that it hath no stay or grounde in Gods word, but is a thing inuented and founde out by man: and therefore to be taken as fond and false: and I had almost sayd, as the Mo.ther and Nourse of the other errors. It were good for my Lordes & maysters of the transubstantiation, 

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Cattley/Pratt, VI, Addenda, ref. page 501, line 11 from the bottom

{Cattley/Pratt alters 'Lordes & maysters of the transubstantiation' to 'masters, the transubstantiators'.} So the first and second editions, and Latimer's Works (P. S. vol. ii. p. 253), and the Latin, "transubstantiatores." Other editions read corruptly "the transubstantion" and "of the transubstantiation."

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to take heede least they conspire with þe nestorians, for I do not see how they can auoyd it.

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MarginaliaAnswere to the 3. conclusion.The third conclusion (as I do vnderstand it) seemeth subtlely to sow sedition agaynst the offering which Christ himselfe offred for vs in his own proper person, according to that pithy place of Paule. Hebre. 1. when he sayth: That Christ his owne selfe hath made purgation of our sinnes. And afterwardes: That he might (sayth he) be a mercifull and a faythfull Byshop, concerning those thinges which are to be done with God, for the taking away of our sinnes. MarginaliaHeb. 1. The taking away of sinnes depēdeth rather in the person of the offerer then in the thing offered, but that he that was the offerer was offered himselfe.So that the expiation or taking away of our sinnes, may be thought rather to depend on this: that Christ was an offring Bishop, then that he was offered, were it not that he was offered of himselfe: and therefore it is needlesse that he should be offered of any other. I will speake nothing of the wonderfull presumption of man, to dare to attempt this thing without a manifest vocation, specially in that it tendeth to the ouerthrowing and making fruitlesse (if not wholy, yet partly) of the Crosse of Christ: for truely it is no base or meane thyng, to offer Christ. And therefore worthily a man may say to my Lordes and maysters the offerers: 

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An obvious mistake occurs in the 1570 edition. Latimer is quoted as saying, 'And therefore worthely a man may say to my Lords and maysters Offerers' (i.e., the priests offering up the host) (1563, p. 979). In the edition of 1570, 'offerers' was changed to 'officers' (1570, p. 1623; 1576, p. 1384; 1583, p. 1455). Not only does the change not make sense, but the Rerum, which reads 'oblatoribus' (p. 687), indicates clearly what is meant.

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Cattley/Pratt, VI, Appendix, ref. page 502, line 6

"Offerers" is the reading in all the editions of Foxe except that of 1576, where and in Strype it is corrupted into "officers."

By what authority doe ye this? And who gaue you this authority? Where? when? A man can not (sayth the Baptist) take any thing, except it be geuen him frō aboue: much lesse then may any man presume to vsurp any honor, before he be therto called. Again, If any mā sin (sayth S. Ioh. ) we haue (sayth he) not a masser or offerer at home, which can sacrifice for vs at masse: but we haue (sayth he) an aduocate Iesus Christ, Marginalia1. Iohn. 2.which once offered himselfe long ago: of which offering, the efficacy and effect is perdurable for euer, so that it is needles to haue such offerers.

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What meaneth Paule, when he sayth: They that serue at the aultar, are partakers of the aultar? and so addeth: So the lord hath ordeined, that they that preach the Gospell, shall liue of the Gospell Whereas he should haue sayd: The Lord hath ordeined, that they that sacrifice at masse, should liue of theyr sacrificing, that there might be a liuing assigned to our sacrificers now, as was before Christes comming, to the Iewish Priestes. For now they haue nothing to alleadge for theyr liuing, as they that be Preachers haue. MarginaliaThe sacrificing Priesthoode chaunged into a Preaching Priesthood.So that it appeareth, that the sacrificing Priesthoode is chaunged by Gods ordinaunce, into a preaching Priesthoode, and

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the sacrificing Priesthoode shoulde cease vtterly, sauing in as much as all Christian men are sacrificing priestes.

MarginaliaThe finall cause why the Lordes Supper was chiefly ordeyned.The supper of the Lord was instituted to prouoke vs to thankes geuing, for the offering which the Lorde hymselfe did offer for vs, muche rather then that our Offerers should do there as they do. Feede (sayth Peter) as muche as ye may, the flock of Christ: nay rather let vs sacrifice as much as we may, for the flocke of Christ. If so be the matter be as now men make it, I can neuer wonder enough, that Peter would or could forget this office of sacrificing, which at this day is in such a price and estimation, that to feed is almost nothing with many. MarginaliaSacrificing taketh away preaching.If thou cease from feeding the flocke, how shalt thou be taken? truely catholicke enough. But if thou cease from sacrificing and massing, howe wyll that be taken? at the leaste I warrant thee, thou shalt be called an hereticke. And whence I pray you, come these papisticall iudgementes? MarginaliaPreposterous iudgement of papistes.Except perchance they thinke a mā feedeth the flocke, in sacrificing for them: and then what needeth there any learned pastors? For no man is so foolish, but soone may he learne to sacrifice and masse it.

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Thus loe, I haue taken the more payne to write, because I refused to dispute, in consideration of my debilitye thereunto: that all men may knowe, howe that I haue so done not without great paynes, hauing not any manne to helpe me, as I haue neuer before bene debarred to haue. O sir, you may chaunce to liue till you come to this age and weakenes that I am of. MarginaliaM. Latimer found more audience with kinges & Princes, then with rusticall diuines.I haue spoken in my time before 2. kinges, more then one, two or three houres together, 

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Cattley/Pratt, VI, Appendix, ref. page 502, line 19 from the bottom

{Cattley/Pratt alters 'one' to 'once' in the text.} The old editions of Foxe and Strype here read "more than one, two, or three hours together [to either, Str.] without interruption:" but the Foxe of 1684 for "one" reads "once;" and a copy of the Protestation in Caius College, Cambridge, reads - "more than two or three, &c."

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without interruption: but nowe that I maye speake the truth (by your leaue) I could not be suffered to declare my minde before you, no, not by the space of a quarter of an houre, without snatches, reuilinges, 
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Cattley/Pratt, VI, Addenda, ref. page 502, line 16 from the bottom

{Cattley/Pratt alters 'snatches, reuilinges' to snackes, rejactes, revilings' in the text.} So reads the first edition of Foxe. This reading is supported neither by the Harleian MS. (Latimer's Works, P. S. vol. ii. 257, 481), nor the Emmanuel MS.; and yet it seems the more correct. "Snak" is explained in Jamieson's Scottish Dictionary by "the gnashing of dog's teeth, when he aims at prey;" and the verb "rejagge" is given by Halliwell, "to reprove," &c. In Strype's Mem. vii. p. 131, we have "snacks, rejagges, revilings." "Rejagge" occurs also in the Promptorium Parvulorum, which see and the note.

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checkes, rebukes, tauntes, such as I haue not felte the like, in such an audience, all my life long. Surely it can not be, but an heinous offence that I haue geuen. But what was it? Forsooth I had spoken of the foure marowbones of the Masse. The which kinde of speaking, I neuer read to be a sinne against the holy ghost,

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I could not be alowed to shewe what I meant by my Metaphor: But sir nowe (by your fauor) I will tell your maistership what I meane.

The 4. Marybones of the Masse by M. Latimer expoūded.
Consecration. Transubstātiation. Oblation. Adoration.
The first is the Popish consecration: which hath bene called a Gods body making.

The second is Transubstantiation.

The third is the Missall oblation.

The fourth adoration.

These chiefe and principall portions, partes & poyntes belonging or incident to the masse, and most esteemed and had in price in the same, I call þe marowbones of the masse 

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Two other minor changes in the 1570 edition were deliberate. Foxe altered the word order of a sentence in Latimer's protestation, apparently to make it less stylistically awkward. In the first edition, the sentence reads: 'meaning by Marybones, the chief and principal portions ... and had in price the same' (1563, p. 980). In the later editions, this was changed to read: 'these cheefe and principal partes and poyntes ... I call þe marrowbones of the masse' (1570, p. 1623; 1576, p. 1385; 1583, p. 1455).

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, which in deed you by force, might, and violence intrude in sound of wordes in some of the scripture, with racking and cramping, iniuryng, and wronging the same: but els in deede, playne out of the scripture, as I am throughly perswaded, although in disputation I could now nothing do, to perswade the same to others, being both vnapt to study and also to make a shew of my former study, in such readines as should be requisite to the same.

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MarginaliaThe iudgement of M. Latimer of D. Weston.I haue heard much talke of maister Doctor Weston to and fro, in my time: but I neuer knew your person to my knowledge, till I came before you, as the Queenes maiesties Commissioner. I pray God send you so right iudgement, as I perceiue you haue a great wit, great learning, with many other qualityes. God geue you grace euer wel to vse them, and euer to haue in remembraūce MarginaliaPride of D. Weston priuily touched.that he that dwelleth on high, looketh on the lowe things on the earth: and that there is no coūsell agaynst the Lord: and also that this world hath bene, and yet is a tottering world. and yet agayn, that though we must obey the princes, yet that hath this limitatiō, MarginaliaObedience to Princes hath his limitation.namely, in the Lord. For who so doth obey them agaynst the Lorde, they be most pernicious to them, and the greatest aduersaries that they haue: for they so procure Gods vengeance vpon them, if God be onely the ruler of thinges.

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There be some so corrput in minde, the truth being taken from them, that they thinke gaynes to be godlinesse: Great learned men, and yet men of no learning, but of railing and raging about questions and strife of wordes, MarginaliaKnowledge without Christ, is mere ignoraunce.I call thē men of no learning, because they know not Christ, how much els so euer they know. And on this sort we are wont to call great learned clerks, being ignorant of Christ, vnlearned men: for it is nothing but playne ignoraunce, to knowe anye thinge 

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Cattley/Pratt, VI, Addenda, ref. page 503, line 20

{Cattley/Pratt alters 'anye thinge' to 'many things' in the text.} So in the ed. 1563 and the Emmanuel Coll. MS.: in the Latin it is "plurima scire." The passage is a translation of two Latin verses, which Latimer seems to have been fond of, for he cites them infrà, vol. vii. p. 413.

without Christ: where as who so knoweth Christ, the same hath knowledge enough, although in other knowledge he be to seek. The Apostle S. Paul confesseth himselfe to the Corinthians, that he dyd know nothing, but Iesus Christ crucified. MarginaliaMany there be which vnder pretense of Christ, darken the glory of ChristMany menne

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