Thematic Divisions in Book 12
1. Exhumations of Bucer and Phagius along with Peter Martyr's Wife2. Pole's Visitation Articles for Kent3. Ten Martyrs Burnt at Canterbury4. The 'Bloody Commission'5. Twenty-two Prisoners from Colchester6. Five Burnt at Smithfield7. Stephen Gratwick and others8. Edmund Allen and other martyrs9. Edmund Allen10. Alice Benden and other martyrs11. Examinations of Matthew Plaise12. Richard Woodman and nine other martyrs13. Ambrose14. Richard Lush15. The Martyrdom of Simon Miller and Elizabeth Cooper16. Rose Allin and nine other Colchester Martyrs17. John Thurston18. George Eagles19. Richard Crashfield20. Fryer and George Eagles' sister21. Joyce Lewes22. Rafe Allerton and others23. Agnes Bongeor and Margaret Thurston24. John Kurde25. John Noyes26. Cicelye Ormes27. Persecution at Lichfield28. Persecution at Chichester29. Thomas Spurdance30. Hallingdale, Sparrow and Gibson31. John Rough and Margaret Mearing32. Cuthbert Simson33. William Nicholl34. Seaman, Carman and Hudson35. Three at Colchester36. A Royal Proclamation37. Roger Holland and other Islington martyrs38. Stephen Cotton and other martyrs39. Scourging of Thomas Hinshaw40. Scourging of John Milles41. Richard Yeoman42. John Alcocke43. Thomas Benbridge44. Four at St Edmondsbury45. Alexander Gouch and Alice Driver46. Three at Bury47. A Poor Woman of Exeter48. The Final Five Martyrs49. John Hunt and Richard White50. John Fetty51. Nicholas Burton52. John Fronton53. Another Martyrdom in Spain54. Baker and Burgate55. Burges and Hoker56. The Scourged: Introduction57. Richard Wilmot and Thomas Fairfax58. Thomas Greene59. Bartlett Greene and Cotton60. Steven Cotton's Letter61. James Harris62. Robert Williams63. Bonner's Beating of Boys64. A Beggar of Salisbury65. Providences: Introduction66. The Miraculously Preserved67. William Living68. Edward Grew69. William Browne70. Elizabeth Young71. Elizabeth Lawson72. Christenmas and Wattes73. John Glover74. Dabney75. Alexander Wimshurst76. Bosom's wife77. Lady Knevet78. John Davis79. Mistress Roberts80. Anne Lacy81. Crosman's wife82. Congregation at Stoke in Suffolk83. Congregation of London84. Englishmen at Calais85. Edward Benet86. Jeffrey Hurst87. William Wood88. Simon Grinaeus89. The Duchess of Suffolk90. Thomas Horton 91. Thomas Sprat92. John Cornet93. Thomas Bryce94. Gertrude Crockhey95. William Mauldon96. Robert Horneby97. Mistress Sandes98. Thomas Rose99. Troubles of Sandes100. Complaint against the Ipswich Gospellers101. Tome 6 Life and Preservation of the Lady Elizabeth102. The Unprosperous Queen Mary103. Punishments of Persecutors104. Foreign Examples105. A Letter to Henry II of France106. The Death of Henry II and others107. Justice Nine-Holes108. John Whiteman109. Admonition to the Reader110. Hales' Oration111. The Westminster Conference112. Appendix notes113. Ridley's Treatise114. Back to the Appendix notes115. Thomas Hitton116. John Melvyn's Letter117. Alcocke's Epistles118. Cautions to the Reader119. Those Burnt at Bristol: extra material120. Priest's Wife of Exeter121. Snel122. Laremouth123. William Hunter's Letter124. Doctor Story125. The French Massacre
Critical Apparatus for this Page
View an Image of this PageCattley Pratt ReferencesLatin/Greek Translations
Names and Places on this Page
None
2143 [2120]

Queene Mary. Conference or Disceptation had betwixt the Protestantes and the Papists at Westminster.

MarginaliaAnno 1558.and of Athanasius.

And seyng that we neuer departed, neither frō the doctrine of God which is contained in the holy Canonicall Scriptures, nor yet from the fayth of the true and catholike church of Christ, but haue preached truely the worde of God, and haue sincerely ministred the sacraments accordyng to the institution of Christ, vnto the which our doctrine and fayth, the most part also of our aduersaries did subscribe not many yeares past, (although now as vnnaturall they are reuolted from the same) wee desire that they render accompt of their backsliding, and shewe some cause wherefore they do not only resist that doctrine which they haue before professed, but also persecute the same by all meanes they can. We do not doubt but through the equitie of the Queenes most excellent maiesty, we shall in these disputations be entreated more gently then in yeres late past, when we were handled most vniustly, & scantly after the common maner of men. As for the iudgement of the whole controuersie, we referre vnto the most holy scriptures, and the catholike church of Christ (whose iudgement vnto vs ought to be most sacred): notwithstanding by the catholike church we vnsterstand not the Romish church, whereunto our aduersaries attribute suche reuerence, but that which S. Augustine & other fathers affirme, ought to be sought in the holy scriptures, and which is gouerned and led by the spirite of Christ.

[Back to Top]

MarginaliaThe 1. proposition.It is against the worde of God and the custome of the Primitiue Church to vse a tong vnknowen to the people in common praiers & administration of the sacraments.

By these words (the word of God) we meane only the written word of God, or canonicall scriptures.

And by the custome of the primitiue church, we meane the order most generally vsed in the church for the space of 500. yeres after Christ, in which times liued the most notable fathers, as Iustine, Ireneus, Tertullian, Cyprian, Basill, Chrysostome, Hierome, Ambrose, Austine, &c.

MarginaliaTwo partes of the proposition.This assertion aboue written hath two partes. Fyrst, that the vse of the tongue not vnderstanded of the people in common prayers of the Church, or in the administation of the Sacramentes, is agaynst Gods worde.

The second, that the same is agaynst the vse of the primatiue Church.

MarginaliaThe first part of the proposition.The first parte is most manifestly prooued by the 14. chapiter of the Epistle to the Corinthians, almost thorow out the whole chapter. In the whiche chapter Saynt Paule intreateth of this matter, ex professo purposely. And although some do cauel that Saint Paule speaketh not in that chapter of praying, but of Preaching, yet is it most euident to any indifferent reader of vnderstanding, and appeareth also by the exposition of the beste writers, that hee plainely there speaketh not onely of Preaching and Prophesying, but also of prayer and thankesgeuing, and generally of all other publicke actions, whiche require any speache in the Church or congregation. For of praying he sayth: I will pray with my spyrite, and I will pray with my minde, I will singe with my spyrite, and I will singe with my minde. And of thankesgeuing (which is a kinde of prayer:) Thou geuest thankes well, but the other is not edyfied. And how shall he which occupyeth the roume of the vnlearned say, Amen to thy geuing of thanks when he vnderstandeth not what thou sayest? And in the ende, descending from particulers to a generall proposition, cōcludeth that all thinges oughte to be done to edyfication. Thus much is cleare by the very words of Saint Paule: and the auncyent Doctors, Ambrose, Augustine, Hierom, and other do so vnderstand this chapter, as it shal appeare by their testimonyes which shall follow afterwarde.

[Back to Top]

¶ Vpon this Chapter of Saint Paule we gather these reasons following.

MarginaliaThe Argument or probation.1. All things done in the Church or congregation, ought so to be done as they may edifye the same.

MarginaliaThe Maior proued.But the vse of an vnknowē tongue, in publicke prayer or administration of Sacramentes doth not edifye the congregation.

MarginaliaThe Minor proued.Therefore the vse of an vnknowen tongue in publicke prayer or administration of Sacramentes is not to be had in the Church.

The first part of this reason is grounded vpon Saynt Paules wordes, commaunding all thinges to be done to edyfication.

The seconde parte is also prooued by Saynte Paules playne wordes. Fryst by this similitude. If the trumpet geue an vncertayne sounde who shall be prepared to battaile? Euen so likewise when ye speake with tongues, except ye speake wordes that haue signification, how shall it be vnderstanded what is spoken? for ye shal but speake in the ayre, that is to say, in vayne, and consequently without edifieng.

[Back to Top]

And afterward in the same chapter he sayth: how can he that occupieth the place of the vnlearned say, Amen, at thy geuing of thankes, seeyng he vnderstandeth not what thou sayest? for thou verily geuest thanks well, but the other is not edified.

These be Pauls words, plainly proouing, that a tong not vnderstanded, doth not edifie. And therefore both the parts of the reason thus prooued by S. Paul, the conclusion followeth necessarily.

MarginaliaAn other argument or probation.Secondly, nothing is to be spoken in the congregation in an vnknown tongue, except it be interpreted to the people, that it may be vnderstand. For saith Paul, if there be no interpreter to him þt speaketh in an vnknown tong, taceat in ecclesia, 

Latin/Greek Translations  *  Close
Disputation at Westminster, citing I Corinthians 14 (13) 28.
Foxe text Latin

taceat in ecclesia

Foxe text translation

let him hold his peace in the church

Actual text of I Corinthians 13 (14) 28 (Vulgate)

[si autem non fuerit interpres] taceat in ecclesia

[Accurate citation]

let him hold his peace in the church. And therfore the commō praiers & administratiō of sacramēts, neither done in a known tong, neither interpreted, are against this commandement of Paul, and not to be vsed.

[Back to Top]

MarginaliaAn other argument.The minister in praier or administration of sacramēts vsing language not vnderstanded of the hearers, is to thē barbarous, an alien, which of Saint Paul is accompted a great absurditie.

MarginaliaThe fourth argument or probation.It is not to bee counted a Christian common prayer, where the people present declare not their assent vnto it by saying Amen, wherein is employed all other words of assent.

MarginaliaAmbros.
Per hos enim impletur confirmatio precis, qui respondent Amen. 

Latin/Greek Translations  *  Close
Disputation at Westminster, citing St. Ambrose.
Foxe text Latin

Per hos enim impletur confirmatio preces, qui respondent Amen.

Foxe text translation

Not translated.

Translation (Wade 2004)

For confirmation is accomplished through these prayers, which respond Amen(?)

Actual text of St. Ambrose, In Psalm. XL Enarratio. 36 in Migne PL. vol. o14. col. 1084C

Sicut enim cum sacerdos benedicit, populus respondet, amen, confirmans benedictionem sibi, quam plebi sacerdos a Domino deprecatur; ita in psalmo responsum est:Fiat, fiat;quasi: Amen, amen. Amen autem confirmationis verbum evidenter ostenditur in Evangelio, ubi Dominus confirmans sermonem suum dicit:Amen dico vobis(Matth. XIX, 23).

[Back to Top]

[Possibly a reference to this passage of Ambrose]

But S. Paul affirmeth that the people cannot declare their assent in saying Amen, except they vnderstand what is said, as afore.

Therfore it is no Christian common prayer where the people vnderstandeth not what is sayd.

MarginaliaThe fyfte argument.Paule would not suffer in this tyme a strange tougue to be heard in the common prayer in the church, notwithstanding that such a kind of speach was then a miracle, & a singular gift of the holy ghost, whereby infidels might bee perswaded and brought to the faith: much lesse is it to bee suffred now amongst christian and faithful men, especially being no miracle, nor especiall gift of the holy ghost.

[Back to Top]

MarginaliaThe sixte argument.Some will peraduenture answer, that to vse any kind of tong in common prayer or administration of the sacramēts is a thing indifferent.

MarginaliaObiection dissolued.But S. Paul is to the contrary. For he commaundeth all things to be done to edification, he cōmandeth to keepe silence if there be no interpreter, and in the end of the chapter he concludeth thus. If any man be spirituall or a prophet, let him know that the things which I write, are the commaundementes of the Lorde. And so shortly to conclude, the vse of a strange tongue in prayer and ministration is agaynst the word and commandement of God.

[Back to Top]

To these reasons, grounded vpon S. Pauls wordes, which are the most firme foundation of this assertion, diuers other reasones may bee ioyned, gathered out of the scriptures and otherwise.

MarginaliaThe 7. reason.In the old testament all things pertainyng to þe publike prayer, benedictions, thankesgeuings, or sacrifices, were alwayes in their vulgar and naturall tong. In the 2. booke of Paralipom. chap. 29. it is written that Ezechias commanded the Leuites to praise God with þe Psalms of Dauid, and Asaph the Prophet, which doubtlesse were written in Hebrew their vulgar tongue. If they did so in the shadowes of the law, much more ought we to doe the like, who (as Christ saith) must pray in spiritu & veritate. 

Latin/Greek Translations  *  Close
Disputation at Westminster, citing St. John, 4. 24
Foxe text Latin

in spiritu et veritate

Foxe text translation

Not translated, apart from 'must praye'

Translation (Wade 2004)

in spirit and in truth

Actual text of St John, 4. 24 (Vulgate)

[et eos qui adorant eum] in spiritu et veritate oportet adorare.

[Back to Top]

MarginaliaThe 8. reason.The finall end of our prayer (as Dauid sayth) is, vt populi conueniant in vnum, & annuncient nomen Domini in Sion, & laudes eius in Hierusalem. 

Latin/Greek Translations  *  Close
Disputation at Westminster, citing Psalm 102 (101).
Foxe text Latin

vt populi conueniant in vnum, & annuncient nomen Domini in Sion, & laudes eius in Hierusalem.

Foxe text translation

Not translated.

Translation (Wade 2004)

When the people gather together as one, and declare the name of the Lord in Sion, and his praises in Jerusalem.

Actual text of Psalm 101 (102). 22-23 (Vulgate from the Greek)

ut adnuntiet in Sion nomen Domini et laudem suam in Hierusalem in conveniendo populos in unum et reges ut serviant Domino.

Actual text of Psalm 101 (102). 22-23 (Vulgate from the Greek)

ut narretur in Sion nomen Domini et laudatio eius in Hierusalem cum congregati fuerint populi simul et regna ut serviant Domino.

[It would seem that Foxe's text is based on the translation from the Greek, although the verse order has been reversed.]

But the name and praises of God cannot be set foorth to the people, vnlesse it be done in such a tong as they may vnderstand, therfore common prayer must bee had in the vulgar tongue.

MarginaliaThe 9. reason.The definition of publike prayer out of the wordes of S. Paule. Orabo spiritu, orabo & mente. Publicè orare, est vota communia mente ad Deum effundere, & ea spiritu, hoc est, lingua testari. 

Latin/Greek Translations  *  Close
Disputation at Westminster, citing I Corinthians xiv.
Foxe text Latin

orabo spiritu, orabo & mente. Publice orare, est vota communia mente ad Deum effundere, & ea spiritu, hoc est, lingua testari

Foxe text translation

Citation from I Corinthians not translated.

Translation (Wade 2004)

I shall pray with the spirit, and I shall also pray with understanding.

Foxe text translation of remainder

Common prayer is to lifte vp our common desires to God with our myndes, and to testify the same outwardly with our tongues.

Actual text of I Corinthians 13 (14) 15 (Vulgate)

quid ergo est orabo spiritu orabo et mente

[The source of the remainder of the Latin is unclear. Nothing found in searching Migne.]

Common prayer is to lifte vp our common desires to God with our myndes, and to testify the same outwardly with our tongues, which definition is approoued by S. Augustine, 
Cattley Pratt  *  Close
Cattley/Pratt, VIII, Appendix: ref page 683, line 16 from the bottom

Whose words more accurately given are: "Quare non opus est locutione cum oramus, id est, sonantibus verbis ... non ut Deus, sed ut homines audiant," &c. (tom. i. col. 542, Edit. Bened.)

de magistro. cap. 1. Nihil opus est (inquit) loquutione, nisi forte vt sacerdotes faciunt, significandæ mentis causa, vt populus intelligat. 
Latin/Greek Translations  *  Close
St. Augustine, De Magistro, cap. i.
Foxe text Latin

Nihil opus est (inquit) loquutione, nisi forte vt sacerdotes faciunt, significandae mentis causa, vt populus intelligat.

Foxe text translation

Not translated.

Translation (Wade 2004)

There is no need (he says) of speaking, except perhaps that the priests do (this), for the sake of indicating their minds, that the people may understand.

Actual text of Augustine, De Magistro, I. 2 in the Corpus Christianorum Series Latina XXIX, Aurelii Augustini Opera Pars II, 2.

Quare non opus est locutione, cum oramus, id est sonantibus uerbis, nisi forte, sicut sacerdotes faciunt, significandae mentis suae causa, non ut deus, sed ut homines audiant

[Clearly this passage of Augustine is being cited, but note the way that Foxe leaves outcum oramus, id est sonantibus uerbisin line 2 andnon ut deusin line 4]

[Back to Top]

MarginaliaThe 10. reason.The ministration of the Lordes supper and baptisme are as it were Sermons of the death and resurrection of Christ.

But Sermons to the people must be had in such language as the people may perceiue, otherwise they shoulde be had in vayne.

MarginaliaThe 11. reason or probation.It is not lawfull for a christian man to abuse the gifts of God, but he that praieth in the church in a strange tong abuseth the gifts of God. For the tong serueth onely to expresse the mynd of the speaker to the hearer. And August. sayth:  

Cattley Pratt  *  Close
Cattley/Pratt, VIII, 683, fn 3

[See his Works; Paris, 1532, vol. iii. fol. 2, col. 1. - ED.]

De doctrina Christiana, li. 4. ca. 10. loquēdi omnino nulla

[Back to Top]
est
Go To Modern Page No:  
Click on this link to switch between the Modern pagination for this edition and Foxe's original pagination when searching for a page number. Note that the pagination displayed in the transcription is the modern pagination with Foxe's original pagination in square brackets.
Find:
Type a keyword and then restrict it to a particular edition using the dropdown menu. You can search for single words or phrases. When searching for single words, the search engine automatically imposes a wildcard at the end of the keyword in order to retrieve both whole and part words. For example, a search for "queen" will retrieve "queen", "queene" and "queenes" etc.
in:  
Humanities Research Institute  *  HRI Online  *  Feedback
Version 2.0 © 2011 The University of Sheffield