Critical Apparatus for this Page
Commentary on the Text
Names and Places on this Page
Unavailable for this Edition
1490 [1490]

K. Henry. 8. A schisme in Scotland about saying of the Pater noster.

the text of the Gospel for that day read in their Masse, written in the 5. of Mathew, containing these wordes 

Commentary  *  Close

Matthew 5:3.

: Blessed are the poore in spirite, for to them pertayneth the kingdome of heauen. MarginaliaMath. 5.

MarginaliaThe doctrine of the Papistes holdeth that the Pater noster may be said to Saints, and why.This feeble foundation beyng layd, the Frier begā to reason most impertinently, that the Lordes Prayer might be offred to Saintes: because euery petitiō therof appertained to them. For if we meete an old man in the streete (said he) we will say to him: Good day father, and therfore much more may we call the Saintes our fathers: MarginaliaBlasphemous doctrine, agaynst the glory and name of God.and because we graunt also that they be in heauen, we may say to euery one of thē: Our father whiche art in heauen. Farther, God hath made their names holy, & therefore ought we as followers of God to holde their names holy, MarginaliaA Fryerly glosing vpon the Pater noster.& so we may say to any of þe Saintes: Our father which art in heauen hallowed be thy name. And for the same cause, sayd þe Frier, as they are in the kingdome of heauē, so that kyngdome is theirs by possessiō: and so praying for þe kingdome of heauē, we may say to thē & euery one of thē: Thy kingdome come. And except their will had bene þe very will of God, they had neuer come to that kingdome, and therfore seyng their wil is Gods will, we may say to euery one of them: Thy will be done.

[Back to Top]

MarginaliaThe Fryers sophistrye here fayled him.But when the Frier came to þe fourth petition touchyng our dayly bread, hee began to bee astonished and ashamed, so that hee did sweate aboundantly, partly because his sophistrie began to faile him, not findyng such a colour for that part as for the other whiche went before: and partly because hee spake agaynst his owne knowledge and conscience, and so was compelled to confesse that it was not in the Saintes power to geue vs our dayly bread, but that they should pray to God for vs (sayd he) that we may obtaine our dayly bread by their intercession, and so glosed hee the rest to the ende. Not standyng yet contēt with this detestable doctrine, he affirmed most blasphemously, that S. Paules napkin and S. Peters shadowe dyd miracles, and that the vertue of Eliseus cloke deuided the waters, attributyng nothyng to the power of God: with many other errours of the Papistes, horrible to be heard.

[Back to Top]

Vppon this folowed incontinent a daungerous schisme in the Church of Scotland: for not onely the Clergie, but the whole people were deuided among them selues, one defēding the truth, & an other the Papistrie, in such sort, that there rose a prouerbe: MarginaliaA Scottishe prouerbe.To whō say you your Pater noster? And although the Papistes had þe vpper hand as then, whose wordes were almost holden for law (so great was the blindnes of that age) yet God so inspired the hartes of the common people, that so many as could get the vnderstandyng of the bare wordes of the Lordes Prayer in English (whiche was then sayd in Latin) vtterly detested that opinion, holding that it should in no wise be sayd to Saints: So that the craftes men & their seruantes in their boothes, MarginaliaFryer Pater noster driuen out of S. Andrewes.whē the Frier came, exploded him with shame inough, crying, Frier Pater noster, Frier Pater noster, who at the last beyng conuict in his owne conscience and ashamed of his former Sermon, was compelled to leaue the towne of S. Andrewes.

[Back to Top]

In the meane tyme of this brute, there were two Pasquils set on the Abbay Church, the one in Latine bearyng these wordes.


Doctores nostri de Collegio,
Concludunt idem cum Lucifero,
Quod Sancti sunt similes altissimo:
Et se tuentur grauatorio
De mandato Officialis,
Ad instantiam fiscalis,
Gaw & Heruy non varij
In premissis connotarij.

The other in English, bearyng these wordes.

MarginaliaM. Dauid Gaw and M. Tho. Heruy, two procuratours.
Doctors of Theologie, of foure score of yeares,
And old iolye Lupoys the balde gray Friers,
They would be called Rabbi and Magister noster,
And wot not to whom they say their Pater noster.

MarginaliaDisputation in Scotland to whom they shold say their Pater noster.Shortly, the Christians were so hotly offended, and the Papists on the other side so proud and wilful, that necessarye it was, to eschewe greater inconueniences that the Clergye at least shoulde bee assembled to dyspute and conclude the whole matter, that the lay people might be put out of doubt. Which being done, and the Vniuersitie agreed, whosoeuer had bene present, might haue heard much subtile sophistry. MarginaliaPater noster to bee sayd to God formaliter, and to Sainctes materialiter.For some of the Popishe Doctors affirmed, that it should be sayd to God formaliter, & to Saintes materialiter. MarginaliaVltimatè to God, non vltimatè to Sainctes.Others vltimatè, & non vltimatè. MarginaliaPrincipaliter to God, minus principaliter to Sainctes.Others sayd it shoulde be sayd to God principaliter, and to Saintes minus principaliter. MarginaliaPrimariè to God, secundariè to Sainctes.Others, that it should be sayd to God primariè, and to Saintes secundariè. MarginaliaStrictè to God: largè to Sainctes.Other, that it should be sayd to God capiendo strictè, and to Saints capiendo largè. Which vaine distinctiōs being heard and considered by the people, they that were simple, remayned in greater doubtfulnes then they were in before: MarginaliaThe aunswere of an olde man, to whom they should say their Pater noster.so that a well aged man, and seruant to the Suppriour of S. Andrewes, called the Suppriors Thorne, being demaunded to whom he sayd hys Pater noster: he aunswered, to God onely. Then they asked againe what should be sayd to the Saintes, he aūswered, giue them Aues and Credes enough in the Deuils name, for that maye suffice them well inough: albeit they doo spoyle God of hys ryght. MarginaliaA doctorly reason why the Pater noster should be sayd in Latine.Others making their vauntes of the Doctors, sayde, that because Christ (who made the Pater noster) neuer came into the Ile of Brittaine, and so vnderstood not the English tong, therfore it was that the Doctors concluded it should be sayd in Latin.

[Back to Top]

MarginaliaThe Coūcel of Edenbrough could not agree to whom they should say their Pater noster.Thys perturbation and open sclaunder yet depending, it was thought good to call a principall Councel 

Commentary  *  Close

Apparently the general provincial council of the Scottish church which assembled in Edinburgh on 26 January 1552, although this dispute was not the formal nor the principal business of that council. David Patrick (ed), Statutes of the Scottish Church 1225-1559 (Edinburgh, 1907), pp. 135-47.

to decide þe matter. MarginaliaThe Papistes maintain their cause with lies and rayling when reason lacketh.Which being assembled at Edenbrough, the Papists being destitute of reason, defended their partes with lies, alledging that þe Vniuersitie of Paris had concluded that þe Lordes prayer should be said to Saintes. But because that could not be proued, and that they coulde not preuayle by reason, they vsed theyr wyll in place of reason, and sometime dispytefull and iniurious talke. As Frier Scot being asked of one to whom he should say the Pater noster, he answered saying: say it to the deuyll, knaue. So the Counsell perceiuing they could profit nothing by reasoning, they were compelled to passe to Marginalia* That is, to the numbring of voyces.* voting.

[Back to Top]

MarginaliaThe Fryers and Prelates could not agree among them selues about saying the Pater noster.But then incontinent they that were called churchmen, were found deuided and repugnant among them selues. For some Bishops with the Doctors and Friers, consented that the Pater noster shoulde be sayd to Saintes: but the Bishops of S. Andrewes, Caitness and Atheins, wyth other more learned men, refused vtterly to subscribe the same. Finallye, with consent of both the parties, commission was geuen by the holye Church, to Dane Marginalia* This Wynrame is now become a godly minister in the Church of God, and a maried man.* Iohn Wynrame, then Suppriour of S. Andrewes, to declare to the people how and after what maner they should pray the Lords prayer. Who accepting the commission, declared that it should be said to God, wyth some other restrictions whych are not necessary to be put in memory. And so by litle and litle, the brute and tumult ceased. Ex testimonio è Scotia allato.

[Back to Top]
¶ The Martyrdome of the blessed seruant of God, Waltet Mille.

MarginaliaWalter Mille, Martyr.AMong the rest of the Martyrs of Scotland, the marueilous constancie of Walter Mille is not to bee passed ouer wyth silence. Out of whose ashes sprang thousandes of his opinion and religion in Scotland, who altogether chose rather to dye, then to be any longer ouertroden by the tyranny of the foresayde cruell, ignorant, and beastlye Bishops, Abbots, Moonkes, and Friers, and so began the congregation

[Back to Top]
of Scot-
ZZZ. j.
Go To Modern Page No:  
Click on this link to switch between the Modern pagination for this edition and Foxe's original pagination when searching for a page number. Note that the pagination displayed in the transcription is the modern pagination with Foxe's original pagination in square brackets.
Find:
Type a keyword and then restrict it to a particular edition using the dropdown menu. You can search for single words or phrases. When searching for single words, the search engine automatically imposes a wildcard at the end of the keyword in order to retrieve both whole and part words. For example, a search for "queen" will retrieve "queen", "queene" and "queenes" etc.
in:  
Humanities Research Institute  *  HRI Online  *  Feedback
Version 2.0 © 2011 The University of Sheffield