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1616 [1554]

Quene Mary. Disputation in the Conuocation house about the reall presence.

MarginaliaAn. 1553.minster at one instant, or to be at London visibly and at Lyncolne inuisibly at one tyme. For that is so contrary to the nature of a body, MarginaliaOne body can not be at once in diuers places. and of all creatures (as Didimus and Basilius do affirme) that an inuisible creature, as an Angell, cannot be at one tyme in diuers places: wherfore he concluded, that the body of Christ might not be in mo places then in one, which is in heauen, and so consequently, not to be conteined in the Sacramēt of the altar.

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To this MarginaliaWeston. þe Prolocutor toke vpon him to aūswere, saying þt it was not true that MarginaliaChrist after his incarnatiō, was in al pointes lyke man, sinne onely except. Christ was like vnto vs in all pointes, as Philpot tooke it, except sinne: For that Christ was not conceiued by the sede of man, as we be.

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Wherunto Philpot agayne replied, that Christes conception was prophecied before by the Aungell to be supernaturall, but after he had receiued our nature by the operatiō of the holy Ghost in the virgins wombe, he became in all pointes like vnto vs, except sinne.

Then MarginaliaMorgan. Morgan, inferred that this saying of Paul did not plainly proue his purpose. Well, quoth MarginaliaPhilpot. Philpot, I perceiue that you do aunswere but by cauillation: yet am I not destitute of other Scriptures to cōfirme my first Argument, although you refuse the probation of so aunciēt and Catholicke a Doctour as Vigilius is. S. Peter in the Sermon that he made in the third of the Actes, makyng mention of Christ, sayth these workes: MarginaliaActes. 3. VVhom heauen must receyue, vntill the consummation of all thynges. &c. Which wordes are spokē of his humanitie. If heauen must hold Christ, then can he not be here on earth in the Sacramēt as is pretended.

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Then Morgan, laughing at this, and geuyng no direct aunswere at all, MarginaliaHarpsfield steppeth in. Harpsfield stode vp, beyng one of the Byshop of Londons Chapleins, & tooke vpon him to aunswere to the saying of S. Peter, and demaunded of Philpot, whether he would Ex necessitate, that is, of necessitie force Christ to any place or no?

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MarginaliaPhilpot.Philpot sayd that he would no otherwise force Christ of necessitie to any place, then he taught by the wordes of the holy Ghost, which sounde thus: that Christes humane body must abide in heauen, vntil the day of iudgement, as I rehearsed out of the chapter before mētioned.

Why, quoth MarginaliaHarpsfield. Harpsfield, do you not know that Christ is God omnipotent? yes, sayd Philpot, I know that right well, neither doubt I any thyng at all of his omnipotencie. But of Christes omnipotencie what he may do, is not our question, but rather what he doth. I know he may make a stone in the wall, a man if he list, and also that he may make moe worldes: but doth he therfore so? It were no good consequent so to cōclude: he may do this or that, therfore he doth it.

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Ba-
Onely so much is to bee beleued of Gods omnipo-
tencie as is in the word expressed.
ro-
That Christes body is both in heauen and here al-
so really in the Sacrament, is not expressed in the
worde:
co.
Ergo, It is not to be beleued that the body of Christ
being in heauen, is here also really in the Sacramēt. 
Commentary  *  Close

Philpot said: 'we must byleve so moch of his [God's] omnipotency as he by his word hath declared and taught us that the heavens must receyve his body vntill the daie of dome therfor we ought to bileve' (Trew report, sig. E2v; 1563, p. 915). Foxe made Philpot's argument more explicit and recast it as a syllogism: 'Only so much is to bee beleved of Gods omnipotence as is in the word expressed. That Christs body is both in heaven and here also really in the Sacrament is not expressed in the worde, Ergo, It is not to be beleved that the body of Christ being in heaven is here also really in the Sacrament' (1570, p. 1578; 1576, p. 1346; and 1583, p. 1416).

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And, where Philpot in answer to a scriptural passage which John Harpsfield had cited to rebut his arguments, declared 'the places were not like which he [Harpsfield] went about to compare, which thing ought to be observed in conferring of wordes or scriptures together' (Trew report, sigs. E2v-E3r; 1563, p. 915). Foxe's version reads: 'the places were not alike whych he went about to compare, and that in comparing Scriptures we must not consider the named wordes, but the meaning rather of the Scriptures' (1570, p. 1578; 1576, p. 1346; and 1583, p. 1417).

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MarginaliaIf Weston charge them for prisoning Christ in heauen, how much more may they charge the Papistes for prisoning Christ in a boxe?Why, quoth the Prolocutor, then you will put Christ in prison in heauen. To the which Philpot aunswered: do you recken heauen to be a prison? God graunt vs all to come to that prison.

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After this, Harpsfield inferred that this worde Oportet in S. Peter, which signifieth in English must, did not import so much as I would inferre of necessitie, as by other places of Scripture it may appeare: as in the first to Timothie where Paul saith: Oportet Episcopum esse vnius vxoris virum: A Byshop must be the husband of one vvife. Here, quoth he, Oportet doth not importe such a necessity but that he that neuer was maried may be a Bishop.

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To this MarginaliaM. Philpot. Philpot sayd agayne that the places were not like which he went about to compare: and that in comparing of Scriptures we must not cōsider þe naked wordes but þe meanyng rather of the Scriptures:  

Commentary  *  Close

Philpot said: 'we must byleve so moch of his [God's] omnipotency as he by his word hath declared and taught us that the heavens must receyve his body vntill the daie of dome therfor we ought to bileve' (Trew report, sig. E2v; 1563, p. 915). Foxe made Philpot's argument more explicit and recast it as a syllogism: 'Only so much is to bee beleved of Gods omnipotence as is in the word expressed. That Christs body is both in heaven and here also really in the Sacrament is not expressed in the worde, Ergo, It is not to be beleved that the body of Christ being in heaven is here also really in the Sacrament' (1570, p. 1578; 1576, p. 1346; and 1583, p. 1416).

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And, where Philpot in answer to a scriptural passage which John Harpsfield had cited to rebut his arguments, declared 'the places were not like which he [Harpsfield] went about to compare, which thing ought to be observed in conferring of wordes or scriptures together' (Trew report, sigs. E2v-E3r; 1563, p. 915). Foxe's version reads: 'the places were not alike whych he went about to compare, and that in comparing Scriptures we must not consider the named wordes, but the meaning rather of the Scriptures' (1570, p. 1578; 1576, p. 1346; and 1583, p. 1417).

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for that in the place by him alledged, MarginaliaOportet how it is taken diuersly in Scripture. S. Paul doth declare of what qualitie a Bishop ought to be. But in þe other, S. Peter teacheth vs þe place where Christ must necessarily be vntill the end of the world: which we ought to beleue to be true. And this cōparisō of this word Oportet doth no more aūswere mine Argument, then if I would say of you now beyng here, Oportet te hic esse, you must needes be here: which importeth such necessitie for the time, that you can none otherwise be but here, and yet you would goe about in wordes to auoyde this necessitie with an other Oporter, in an other sense, as this: Oportet te esse virum bonū, you must be a good man: Where Oportet, doth not in very deede conclude any such necessitie, but that you may be an euill man. Thus you may see that your aunswere is not sufficient, & as it were no aunswere to my Argument.

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Then MarginaliaWeston. the Prolocutor brought in an other Oportet, to helpe this matter (if it might be) saying: what say you to this: Oportet hæreses esse? must heresies nedes be therfore because of this worde Oportet?

Yea truely, quoth MarginaliaPhilpot. Philpot, it can not otherwise be, if you will adde that which foloweth immmediatly vpō those wordes of Paul, that is, Vt qui electi sunt manifestētur, that is, That such as be the elect of God, may be manifested & knovven.

Why? quoth MarginaliaWeston. the Prolocutor, the tyme hath bene, that no heresies were. I know no such tyme, quoth MarginaliaPhilpot. Philpot. For since the time of Abell and Cayn, heresies haue bene, and then began they. Then sayd MarginaliaWeston. the Prolocutor, will you now aunswere Morgan an Argument or two? I will, quoth MarginaliaPhilpot. Philpot, if I may first be aunswered to mine Argument any thyng accordyng to truth & to learning. What? quoth the Prolocutor, you will neuer be aūswered. How I am aunswered, quoth Philpot, let all men that are here present, iudge: and specially such as be learned, and with what cauillations you haue dalied with me.

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First to the auncient authoritie of Vigilius, you haue aunswered nothyng at all, but onely denying it to bee Scripture, that he sayth. Secondarely, to the saying of S. Peter in the Actes ye haue aunswered thus, demaundyng of me whether I would kepe Christ in prison or no. Let men now iudge, if this be a sufficient aūswere or no.

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Then stoode MarginaliaMorgan. Morgan vp agayne & asked Philpot whether he would be ruled by the vniuersall Church, or no?

Yes, quoth MarginaliaPhilpot. he, if it be the true Catholicke Church. And sith you speake so much of the Church, I would fayne that you would declare what the Church is.

The Church, quoth MarginaliaMorgan. Morgan, is diffused, and dispersed throughout the whole world. That is a diffuse definitiō, quoth MarginaliaPhilpot. Philpot: for I am as yet vncertaine, as I was before, what you meane by the Church. But I knowledge no Church, but that which is grounded and founded on Gods worde, as S. Paule sayth: Vppon the foundation of the Prophetes and Apostles, and vppon the Scriptures of God.

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What, quoth MarginaliaMoremā. Moreman, was the Scripture before the Church? yea, quoth Philpot. But I will proue nay quoth Moreman, & I will begyn at Christes tyme. MarginaliaWhether the Church was before the Scripture?The Church of Christ was before any Scripture writtē. For Mathew was the first that wrote the Gospell, about a dosē yeares after Christ: Ergo, the Church was before the Scripture.

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To whom Philpot aunsweryng, denied his Argumēt. Which when Moreman could not proue, Philpot shewed that his Argumēt was Elenchus or a fallace, that is, a deceiueable Argument. For he tooke the Scripture only to be that which is written by men in letters, MarginaliaScripture consisteth not onely in letters, but is that which is inspired in the hartes of good mē by the holy ghost.where as in very deede all prophecie vttered by the spirite of God, was counted to be Scripture before it was writtē in paper and incke, for that it was written in the hartes, and grauen in the mindes, yea, and inspired in the mouthes of good men, and of Christes Apostles by the spirite of Christ: As the salutatiō of the Aungel was the Scripture of Christ, and the word of God before it was written. At that Moreman cried, fye, fye: wōdryng that the Scripture of God should be counted Scripture, before it was written, and affirmed that he had no knowledge that so sayd.

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To whom MarginaliaPhilpot. Philpot aunswered, that cōcernyng knowledge in this behalfe, for the triall of the truth about the questions in controuersie, he would wish him selfe no worse matched then with Moreman.

At the which saying, MarginaliaWeston. the Prolocutor was greuously offended, saying that it was arrogantly spoken of him, that would compare with such a worshypfull learned man as Moremā was, beyng him self a mā vnlearned, MarginaliaWeston rayleth agaynst Philpot, to be a madde mā. yea a mad man, meeter to be sent to Bedlem, thē to be among such a sort of learned & graue mē as there were, & a mā that neuer would be aunswered, & one that troubled the whole house: & therfore he did cōmaūde him that he should come no more into the house, demaundyng of the house whether they would agree therupō or no. To whom a great number aunswered, yea. Then sayd Philpot agayne, that he might thinke him selfe happy, that was out of that company.

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After this Morgan rose vp and rounded the Prolocutor in the eare. And then agayne the Prolocutor spake to Philpot and sayd, lest you should sclaunder the house, and say that we will not suffer you to declare your minde, MarginaliaPhilpot cōmaunded to come in a longe gowne and a tippet, or els to come no more to the Cōuocation.we are content you shall come into the house as you haue done before, so that you be apparelled with a longe gowne and a Tippet as we be, and that you shall not speake but when I commaunde you. Then quoth Philpot, I had rather be absent altogether.

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Thus they reasonyng to and fro, at length about þe

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