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1627 [1565]

Queene Mary. Talke of M. Ridley at the Lieftenantes table, touching the Sacrament.

Marginalia1554. Decemb.condly, as the Virgin caried Christ in her armes, & layd him in an Oxe stall after hys byrth: euen so the Priest after the consecration, doth lift vp the body of Christ, and placeth it, and carieth it, and handleth it with his hands. Thyrdly, as the blessed Virgin was sanctified before she conceiued: so the Priest being ordeyned and annoynted before hee doth consecrate, because without orders hee coulde consecrate nothing, therefore the Lay man can not doe the thing, although hee bee neuer so holy, and doe speake the selfe same wordes of consecration. Therefore here is to be knowen, that the dignitye of priestes by some meanes passeth þe dignitie of Angels, MarginaliaPriesthood compared and preferred before the state of Aungells. because there is no power geuē to any of the Angels to make the body of Christ. Whereby the least Priest may do in earth, that the greatest and highest Aungell in heauen can not do, as S. Barnard sayth : O worshipfull dignitie of Priestes, in whose handes the Sonne of God is, as in the wombe of the Virgin he was incarnate. Saint Austine saith, that Angels in the consecration of the sacred host doe serue him, and the Lord of heauen descendeth to hym. Wherupon S. Ambrose vpon Luke sayth : Doubt thou not the Angels to be where Christ is present vpon the aultar. MarginaliaBlasphemie. Wherefore Priestes are to be honored before all kinges of the earth, Princes & Nobles. For a Priest is higher then a Kyng, happier then an Angell, maker of his Creator. Wherfore. &c.

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It was declared a litle before how Doct. Ridley was had from Fremingham to the Tower: where being in duraunce, and inuited to the Lieftenants table, he had cetaine talke or conference with Secretary Bourne, Maister Fecknam, and other, concerning the controuersies in religion: the summe wherof, as it was penned with hys own hand, hereafter ensueth. 

Commentary  *  Close
Block 16: The Communication between Bourne and Ridley

The dialogue between Ridley and Sir John Bourne continues the pattern of argument about the eucharist alternating with political narrative which runs throughout Book 10. The dialogue first appeared in print in the 1563 edition (1563, p. 929-32; 1570, p. 1589-91; 1576, p. 1356-58; 1583, p. 1426-28); there is no earlier surviving print or manuscript version. Foxe states that the dialogue was penned with Ridley's own hand; apparently Foxe obtained a unique copy. As will be seen in Book 11, George Shipside, Ridley's brother-in-law, was one of Foxe's sources; it is quite possible that he obtained the dialogue for Foxe.

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¶ Here followeth the summe and effect of the communication betwen D. Ridley, and Secretary Bourne, with others, at the Lieftenantes table in the Tower.

 

Commentary on the Glosses  *  Close
'The Communication'

A large number of glosses ('Vnitie, Antiquitie, Vniuersalitie' and ten following) appear in all editions, and concern Ridley's successful answer to Fecknam, taking his own categories of unity, antiquity and universality and refashioning them in a suitably protestant way, together with an exposition of 'hoc est' (see also 'The place of Saint Cyprian expounded' for another example of Ridley expounding). For an example of Ridley's view being given authoritative status by a marginal gloss, see 'The doctrine of the Sacrament not new'. A 1563 gloss which seems to be mocking the poor logic of the catholics was later dropped, possibly because it was rather obscurely phrased ('Ergo ther is no substance of bread in the sacrament'). The veil drawn over the connection between the catechism and Cranmer after 1563 ('Bishop of Caunterburys boke' (1563); 'The booke of Catechisme' (later editions)) is perhaps significant in the light of concerns about the Prayer Book.

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MarginaliaSyr Tho. Abridges.MAister Thomas of Bridges sayd at hys brother Maister Lieftenantes boord: I pray you Mayster Doctors, for my learning tell me what an hereticke is. Maister Secretary Bourne sayd, I wyll tel you MarginaliaWho is an hereticke.who is an hereticke: who so stubburnly and stiffely mayntayneth an vntruth, he is an heretike. Ye meane Sir (said I) an vntruth in matters of religion, and concerning our faith. Yea that is true, sayd he: and in this we were soone agreed. Then sayd Maister Fecknam, sitting at þe vpper end of þe table, whō they called maister Deane of Paules: I wyll tell you by S. Augustine who is an hereticke. MarginaliaAn hereticke defined by S. Austen.Qui adulandi Principib9 vel lucri gratia falsas opiniones gignit vel sequitur, hæreticus est, 
Latin/Greek Translations  *  Close
St. Augustine
Foxe text citation

Line 48: Qui adulandi Principibus vel lucri gratia falsas opiniones gignit vel sequitur, hereticus est.

[As in 1563]

Line 52: vel vanae gloriae causa

[As in 1563]

Foxe text translation

Not translated.

Actual text of St. Augustine, De utilitate credendi (Migne, P.L. Vol. 042, Col. 0065)

Nunc vero cum inter haec duo plurimum intersit: quandoquidem haereticus est, ut mea fert opinio, qui alicujus temporalis commodi, et maxime gloriae principatusque sui gratia, falsas ac novas opiniones vel gignit vel sequitur; ille autem qui hujusmodi hominibus credit, homo est imaginatione quadam veritatis ac pietatis illusus:

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[These are clearly references to this passage of St. Augustine, but the Latin has been heavily edited.]

sayth S. Austine: and then he englished the same. Syr said I, I weene S. Augustine addeth the third member, which is vel vanæ gloriæ causa. 
Latin/Greek Translations  *  Close
St. Augustine
Foxe text citation

Line 48: Qui adulandi Principibus vel lucri gratia falsas opiniones gignit vel sequitur, hereticus est.

[As in 1563]

Line 52: vel vanae gloriae causa

[As in 1563]

Foxe text translation

Not translated.

Actual text of St. Augustine, De utilitate credendi (Migne, P.L. Vol. 042, Col. 0065)

Nunc vero cum inter haec duo plurimum intersit: quandoquidem haereticus est, ut mea fert opinio, qui alicujus temporalis commodi, et maxime gloriae principatusque sui gratia, falsas ac novas opiniones vel gignit vel sequitur; ille autem qui hujusmodi hominibus credit, homo est imaginatione quadam veritatis ac pietatis illusus:

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[These are clearly references to this passage of St. Augustine, but the Latin has been heavily edited.]

Ye say euen true maister Doctor, sayd he, and thus far we did agree all three.

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Maister Fecknam began againe to say, MarginaliaFecknam prouoking Maister Ridley.who so doth not beleue that scripture affirmeth, but will obstinatly maintaine the contrary, he is Hæreticus: as in the sacrament of the aulter. Mathew doth affirme there to be Christes body. Marke doth affirme it, Luke affirmeth it, Paule affirmeth it, & none denieth it: therfore to hold the contrary it is heresie. It is the same body and flesh that was borne of the virgin: and this is confirmed by MarginaliaVnitie. Antiquitie. Vniuersalitie.vnitie, antiquitie, & vniuersalitie. For none before Berengarius did euer doubt of this, and he was an hereticke, as maister Doctor there knoweth full well: I do testify his own conscience, sayd he.

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Mary Syr, sayd Maister Secretary, maister Fecknā hath spoken well. These be great matters, vnitie, antiquitie, and vniuersalitie. Do ye not so thinke Mayster Doctor, sayd he to me?

Here, while I strained curtesy and pretended as nothing to talke, sayd one of the Commissioners: peraduenture maister Ridley doth agree with maister Fecknam, and then there needes not much debating of the matter.

Syr, sayd I, in some thinges I doo and shall agree with him, and in some things which he hath spoken to

be plaine, I do not agree with him at all. Maisters said I, ye be (as I vnderstād) the Queenes Commissioners here, and if ye haue commisssion to examine me in those matters, I shall declare vnto you plainly my fayth: if ye haue not, then I shal pray you either geue me leaue to speake my mynde freely, or els to hold my peace.

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There is none here, sayd maister Secretary, that doth not fauour you: and then euery man shewed what fauour they bare towardes mee, and how glad they would be of an agreement.

But as I strayned to haue licence of them in playne wordes to speake my mynd, so me thought they graunted me it but vix or ægrè. Well, at the last I was content to take it for lycenced, and so began to talke.

MarginaliaBysh. Ridley aunswering to Fecknam.To M. Fecknams Argumentes of the manifold affirmatiō where no deniall was, I aunswered: Where is a multitude of affirmatiōs in Scripture, and where is one affirmation, all is one concernyng the truth of the matter: MarginaliaTruth in Scripture goeth not by nūber of affirmation where one is sufficient.for that any one of the Euangelistes spake inspired by the holy Ghost, was as true as that which is spoken of them all. It is as true that Iohn sayth of Christ: Ego sū ostiū ouiū. i. I am the doore of the shepe, as if al had said it. For it is not in scripture as in witnes of men where the number is credited more then one, because it is vncertaine of whose spirite he doth speake. And where Maister Fecknam spake of so many, affirmyng without any negation. &c. Syr, sayd I, all they do affirme the thyng which they ment. MarginaliaWordes in scripture must be taken with their meaning.Now if ye take their wordes and leaue their meanyng, then do they affirme what ye take, but not what they ment. 

Commentary  *  Close

A few distortions occurred in the printing of the dialogue from edition to edition. In 1563 (p 929), a passage reads 'then they do not affirme what ye take but what they ment' (my emphasis). In 1570 (p 1589), the word 'not' was omitted and this omission was repeated in subsequent editions (1576, p. 1356; 1583, p. 1427).

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Sir sayd I, if in talke with you, I should so vtter my mynd in wordes, that ye by þe same do & may playnly perceiue my meanyng, & could (if ye would be captious) cauill at my wordes & writh them to an other sense, I would thinke ye were no gentle companion to talke with, except ye would take my wordes as ye did perceiue that I did meane.

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Mary, quoth Maister Secretary, he should els do you plaine iniurie and wrong.

Maister Fecknam perceiuyng whereunto my talke went, why (quoth he) what circumstances can ye shew me that should moue to thinke of any other sense, then as the wordes playnly say: Hoc est corpus meū quod pro vobis tradetur. i. This is my body which shalbe be betrayed for you?

MarginaliaHoc est corpus meum expounded.Syr, sayd I, euen the next sentēce that foloweth: videlicet: Hoc facite in meā cōmemorationē. i. Do this in my remembraunce. And also by what reason, ye say þt bread is turned into Christes carnall body: by þe same I may say, that it is turned into his misticall body. MarginaliaReasons why these wordes ought to be taken not literally.For as that saith of it: Hoc est corpus quod pro vobis tradetur: so Paul which spake by Christes spirite, sayth: Vn9 panis & vnum corpus multi sumus omnes qui de vno pane participamus. i. We beyng many are all one bread and one body, in as much as we are partakers of one bread.

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Here he calleth one bread, one loafe, said Maister Secretary.

Yea sayd I, one loafe, one bread, all is one with me.

But what say ye, quoth Maister Secretary, of the Vniuersalitie, antiquitie, & vnitie, that Maister Fecknam did speake of?

I ensure you, sayd I, I thinke them matters weightie and to be considered well. MarginaliaVnitie with veritie to be allowed.As for vnitie, the truth is, before God, I do beleue it and embrace it, so it be with veritie, and ioyned to our head Christ, and such one as Paul speaketh of, saying: Vna fides, vnus Deus, vnū Baptisma. i. One fayth, one God, one Baptisme. And for MarginaliaAntiquitie.antiquitie I am also persuaded to be true that Irenæus sayth: Quod primum verum. i. 

Latin/Greek Translations  *  Close
Irenaeus
Foxe text citation

Quod primum verum

[As in 1563]

Foxe text translation

That is first is true.

[As in 1563]

Actual text of Irenaeus?

[Original in Greek. Search unlikely to find anything helpful.]

That is first is true. In our Religion Christes fayth was first truly taught by Christ him selfe, by his Apostles, and by many good mē that from the begynnyng did succede next vnto them: and for this controuersie of the Sacrament I am persuaded, that those old writers which wrote before the

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