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1662 [1624]

Quene Mary. Disputation of M. Latymer at Oxford.

MarginaliaAn. 1554. Aprill.Latimer. No good Maister, I pray you be good to an old man. You may (if it please God) be once old, as I am: ye may come to this age, MarginaliaBut God saw it good that Weston neuer came to hys age. and to this debility.

West. Ye sayd vpon Saterday last, that ye could not finde the Masse, nor the Marybones thereof in your booke: but we wyll fynde a Masse in that booke.

Lati. No good Maister Doctor: ye can not.

West. What finde you then there?

Lati. Forsooth a Communion I finde there.

West. Which Communion, * Marginalia* By this first and second Communion, he meaneth the two bookes of publicke order set forth in K. Edwardes dayes, the one in the beginning, the other in the latter end of hys reigne. the first or the last?

Lati. I finde no great diuersitie in them: they are one supper of the Lord; but I lyke the last very well.

West. Then the first was naught bylyke.

Lati. I do not wel remember wherein they differ.

West. Then cake bread and loafe bread are all one wyth you. MarginaliaD. Weston cauilleth agaynst the name of the Lords supper.Ye call it the supper of the Lord: but you are deceiued in that: for they had done þe supper before, & therfore the scripture saith: postquam cœnatum est, that is: after they had supped. For ye know, that S. Paul findeth fault with the Corinthians, for that some of thē were dronken at this supper: and ye know no man can be dronken at your Communion.

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Lati. The first was called MarginaliaCœna Iudaica.Cœna Iudaica, that is: The Iewish supper, when they dyd eate the Paschall Lambe together: the other was called MarginaliaCœna Dominica.Cœna dominica, that is: The Lordes Supper.

West. That is false, for MarginaliaChrysost. in 1. Cor. cap. 10.Chrysostome denyeth that. And saint Ambrose in cap. 10. prioris ad Corinthios saith, that Mysterium Eucharistiæ inter cœnādum datum, non est cæna dominica, that is: The mystery of the sacrament, geuen as they were at supper, is not the Supper of the Lord.

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And MarginaliaGreg. Nazianzenus.Gregory Nazianzene sayth the same. Rursus Paschæ sacra cū discipulis in cœnaculo ac post cœnam, dieq; vnica antè passionem celebrat. Nos verò ea in orationis dominibus, & ante cœnam & post resurrectionem peragimus. That is.

Agayne, he kept the holy feast of Passeouer wyth hys Disciples in the dyning chamber, after the Supper, and one day before his passion. But we keepe it, both in the churches and houses of prayer, both before the Supper, and also after the resurrection.

And that fyrst Supper was called Marginaliaἀγάπη. i. MarginaliaCharitas. MarginaliaSo were the feastes called, wonte to be geuen to the poore.ἀγάπη: can you tell what that is?

Lat. I vnderstand no Greeke. Yet I thinke it meaneth Charitie.

West. Wyll you haue all thing done that Christ dyd then? Why? then must the Priest be hanged on the morow. And where finde you, I pray you, that a woman should receiue the sacrament?

Lat. Wyll you geue me leaue to turne my booke? I finde it in the. xi. chapter to the Corinthians. I trow these be hys woordes: Probet autem seipsū homo. &c. I pray you good Maister, what gender is homo? MarginaliaVVeston opposed in hys grammer.

West. Mary the common gender. MarginaliaThere you misse I wis.

Cole. It is in the Greeke ὁ ἄντθροπος.

Hard. It is ἄννρ, that is, vir.

Lati. It is in my booke of Erasmus translation, Probet seipsum homò. 

Commentary  *  Close

There was an omission in the Rerum account. Latimer's comment 'It is in my booke of Erasmus translation, Probet se ipsum homo' (1563, p. 981; 1570, p. 1624; 1576, p. 1385; 1583, p. 1456; this is not in Rerum, p. 690). This omission was probably inadvertent.

Marginaliaδοκιμαζέτω δὲ ἄνθρωπος ἑαυτὸν 1. Cor. 11.

Feck. It is probet seipsum in deede: and therefore it importeth the Masculine gender.

Lat. What then? I trow when the woman touched Christ, he sayd: Quis tetigit me? Scio quod aliquis me tetigit. That is: Who touched me? I know that some man touched me.

West. I wyll be at host with you anon. MarginaliaArgument.When Christ was at hys Supper, none were wyth hym, but hys Apostles onely.

Ergo, he ment no woman, if you wyll haue this institution kept.

Lat. MarginaliaThe Apostles represented the whole church.In the twelue Apostles was represented the whole Church, in which you will graunt both men and women to be.

West. So through the whole heretically translated Bible, ye neuer make mention of Priest, till ye come to

the puttyng of Christ to death. Where find you then that a Priest or Minister, ( MarginaliaWeston scorneth the name of Minister.a minstrell I may call hym well enough) should do it of necessitie?

Lat. MarginaliaThe name of Minister more fit then the name of Priest.A Minister is a more fit name for that office: for the name of a Priest importeth a sacrifice.

West. Well, remember that ye can not find that a woman may receiue, by Scripture. Maister Opponent fall to it.

Smith. Because I perceiue that this charge is layd vpō my necke, to dispute with you: to the ende that the same may go foreward after a right maner and order, I will propose three questions, so as they are put forth vnto me. And first I aske this question of you, although the same in deede ought not to be called in questiō: But such is the condition of the Church, that is alwayes vexed of the wicked sorte. I aske (I say) whether Christes body be really in the Sacrament.

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Lat. I trust I haue obtained of Maister Prolocutour, that no man shall exact that thing of me, which is not in me. And I am sory that this worshipful audience should be deceiued of their expectation for my sake. I haue geuen vp my mynd in writyng to maister Prolocutour.

Smith. What soeuer ye haue geuen vp, it shall be registred among the Actes.

Lat. MarginaliaMaister Latymer modestly maketh hym selfe vnable to dispute.Disputation requireth a good memorie: ast abolita est mihi memoria, my memory is gone cleane, and marueilously weakened, and neuer the better Iwis for the prison.

West. How long haue ye bene in prison?

Lat. These three quarters of this yeare.

West. And I was in prison 6. yeares.

Lat. The more pitie Syr.

West. How long haue you bene of this opinion?

Lat. It is not long Syr, that I haue bene of this opinion. 

Commentary  *  Close

In later editions, Latimer states, 'It is not long, Syr, since I have bene of this opinion' (1570, p. 1624; 1576, p. 1386; 1583, p. 1456); in 1563 (p 981) he says, 'It is long, Syr, since I have bene of this opinion'. (The 1563 version was clearly in error for the Rerum reads: 'Non valde diu, a bone').

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West. The tyme hath bene when you sayd Masse full deuoutly. 

Commentary  *  Close

In the edition of 1563, Weston says, 'Ye have sayde masse at Grenewyche full devoutely' (1563, p. 981), while in later editions this is rendered: 'The tyme hath bene when you sayd Masse full devoutly' (1570, p. 1624; 1576, p. 1386; 1583, p. 1456). (Rerum, p. 690, does not mention Greenwich in its translation of the remark).

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Lat. Yea, I cry God mercy hartely for it. MarginaliaThen they hist & clapt their hādes at hym.

West. Where learned you, this new fanglenes?

Lat. I haue long sought for the truth in this matter of the Sacrament, and haue not bene of this mynd past seuen yeares: and MarginaliaMaister Latymer confirmed by Doct. Cranmers booke.my Lord of Caunterbury hys booke 

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The text Latimer repeatedly cited as 'Cranmer's book' was Thomas Cranmer, A defence of the true and catholike doctrine of the sacrament of the body and bloud of Christ (STC 6000-6002).

hath especially confirmed my iudgement herein. If I could remember all therin cōteined, I would not feare to aunswere any man in this matter.

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Tres. There are in that booke sixe hundred errours.

West. You were once a Lutheran.

Lat. MarginaliaThe zeale of Maister Latymer sometimes in Popery agaynst the Tygurines.No, I was a Papist: For I neuer could perceiue how Luther could defend his opinion without Transubstantiation. The Tygurines once did write a booke MarginaliaIn that booke the deuill doth not dissuade hym so much from saying Masse, as to bryng hym to desperation for saying Masse, such temtations many times happen to good men. agaynst Luther: and I oft desired God, that he myght lyue so long to make them aunswere.

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West. Luther in his booke de priuata Missa, sayd that the deuill reasoned with hym, and persuaded hym that þe Masse was not good, 

Commentary  *  Close

Weston, in alleging that Luther declared the devil taught him that the mass was evil (1563, p. 981; 1570, p. 1624; 1576, p. 1386; 1583, p. 1456), was repeating a charge levelled at Luther by Johannes Cochlaeus and repeated by such leading polemicists as Fredericus Staphylus, Stanislaus Hosius and Nicholas Harpsfield. It was based on Luther's declaring, in the work cited by Weston, that the devil tempted him to despair by charging him with hypocrisy in performing the mass even though he did not believe in transubstantiation.

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Fol. 14. contigit me. &c. Wher of it may appeare that Luther sayd Masse, and the deuill dissuaded hym from it.

Lat. I do not take in hand here to defend Luthers sayinges or doynges. If he were here, he would defend hym selfe well enough I trow. I told you before that I am not meete for disputations. I pray you read myne aunswere, wherin I haue declared my faith.

West. Do you beleue this, as ye haue written?

Lat. Yea Syr.

West. Then haue you no faith.

Lat. Then would I be sory Syr.

Tres. MarginaliaHere Tresham began to dispute in Latin.It is writtē Ihon. 6. Except ye shall eate the flesh of the sonne of man, and drinke his bloud, ye shal haue no life in you. Which when the Capernaites & many of Christes Disciples heard, they sayd: This is a hard saying. &c. Now that the truth may the better appeare, here I aske of you, whether Christ speakyng these wordes, did meane of his flesh to be eaten with the mouth, or of the spirituall eatyng of the same?

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Lat. I aunswere (as Augustine vnderstandeth) that

Christ
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