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1393 [1368]

Q. Mary. Disputation of Doct. Cranmer Archb. of Cant. in Oxford.

MarginaliaAn 1554. Aprill. Yong. If he wrought nothyng, nothyng is left there. He sayd: This is my body. You say contrary to the scriptures, it is not the body of Christ, and fall from the fayth.

Cran. You interprete the scriptures contrary to all the olde writers, and fayne a strange sense.

Yong. Ambros. De ijs qui initiantur sacris, cap. 9. sayeth: MarginaliaAmbros. De ijs qui initiātur, &c. cap. 9. De totius mundi operibus legisti, quia ipse dixit & facta sunt, ipse, mandauit & creata sunt. Sermo Christi qui potuit ex nihilo facere quod non erat, non potest ea quæ sunt in id mutare quæ non erant? Non enim minus est nouas res dare, quā mutare naturas: Sed quid argumentis vtimur? suis vtamur exemplis, incarnationisq; exemplo astruamus mysterij veritatem. Nunquid naturæ vsus præcessit cum Dominus Iesus ex Maria nasceretur? Si ordinem quærimus, viro mixta fœmina generare consueuit, Liquet igitur quod præter naturæ ordinē virgo generauit: & hoc quod conficimus corpus ex virgine est. Quid hic quæris naturæ ordinem in Christi corpore, cū præter naturam sit ipse Dominus Iesus partus ex virgine? vera vtiq; caro Christi quæ Crucifixa est, quæ sepulta est: verè ergò illius Sacramentum est. Clamat Dominus Iesus: Hoc est corpus meum. Ante benedictionem verborum cœlestium alia species nominatur, post consecrationem corpus significatur. Ipse dicit sanguinem suum. Ante consecrationem aliud dicitur: post consecrationem sanguis nuncupatur. Et tu dicis, Amen: hoc est, verum est. Quod os loquitur, mens interna fateatur: quod Sermo sonat, affectus sentiat. That is.

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Thou hast red of the workes of all the world, that he spake the worde and they were made: he commaunded and they were created. Can not the word of Christ which made of nothyng, that which was not, chaunge those thynges that are, into that they were not? For it is no lesse matter to geue new thinges, thē to chaunge natures. But what vse we Argumentes? let vs vse hys owne examples, and let vs confirme the veritie of the mysterye by example of his incarnation. Did the vse of nature go before, when the lord Iesus was borne of Mary? If you seeke the order of nature, conception is wont to be made by a woman ioyned to a man. It is manifest therefore, that contrary to the * Marginalia* As Christ Iesus was conceaued agaynst the order of nature: so in the instituting of thys Sacrament the order of nature is not to be sought. order of nature, a virgin did conceyue: and this that we make, is the body of the virgin. What seekest thou here the order of nature in the body of Christ, when agaynst the order of nature the Lord Iesus was conceiued of a Virgine? It was the true flesh of Christ which was crucified and whiche was buried: therfore it is truly the sacrament of hym. Thelorde Iesus hymselfe crieth: This is my body. Before the blessing of the heauenly wordes, it is named an other kynd: but after the consecration the body of Christ is signified. He calleth it hys bloud. Before consecration, it is called an other thyng: after consecration it is called bloud, and thou sayest Amen: that is, it is true. That the mouth speaketh, let the inward mynd confesse: that the word soūdeth, let the hart perceiue.

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The same Ambrose in hys 4. booke of sacraments the 4. chap. sayth thus: MarginaliaAmbrosius lib. De Sacramentis. cap. 4. Panis iste, panis est ante verba Sacramentorū: vbi accesserit consecratio, de pane fit caro Christi. Hoc igitur astruamus: quomodo potest, qui panis est, corpus esse Christi consecratione? consecratio igitur quibus verbis est, & cuius sermonibus? Domini Iesu. Nam ad reliqua omnia quæ dicuntur, laus Deo defertur, oratione petitur pro populo, pro regibus, pro cæteris: vbi venitur vt conficiatur venerabile Sacramentum, iam non suis sermonibus Sacerdos vtitur, sed sermonibus Christi. Ergò sermo Christi hoc conficit Sacramentum. Quis sermo? nempe is quo facta sunt omnia. Iussit Dominus & factum est cœlum: iussit Dominus & facta est terra: iussit dominus & facta sunt maria. &c. Vides ergo quam operatorius sit sermo Christi. Si ergo tanta vis est in sermone Domini, vt inciperent esse quæ non erant, quanto magis operatorius est, vt sint quæ erant & in aliud commutentur.

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That is to say.

MarginaliaThe words of Ambrose in Englishe.This bread is bread before the wordes of the Sacraments. When the consecration commeth to it, of bread it is made the flesh of Christ. Let vs confirm this therfore: how can that which is breade, by consecration be the bodye of Christ? by what wordes then is the consecration made, & by whose wordes? by the wordes of our Lord Iesus. For touchyng all other thinges that are sayd, prayse is geuen to God, prayer is made for the people, for kinges, and for the rest. When it commeth, that the reuerend Sacrament must be made, then the Priest vseth not his owne wordes, but the wordes of Christ: therfore the word of Christ maketh this Sacrament. What worde? That word, by which all things were made. The Lorde * Marginalia* But the Lord Iesus here vsed not such wordes of cōmaūding in the Sacramēt as in creation: for we read not, fiat hoc corpus meum, as we read, fiat lux. &c. commaunded, and heauen was made: the Lord commaunded and the earth was made: the lord commaunded, and the seas were made: the lord comaunded, and all creatures were made. Doest thou not see then how strong in workyng the worde of Christ is? If

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therfore, so great strength be in the Lordes word, that those things should begin to be which were not before, how much the rather is it of strēgth to worke that these things which were, should be chaunged into an other thyng?

Ambr. saith, that the wordes are of strength to worke.

 

Commentary  *  Close

In the Rerum, (p. 654) and 1563 (p. 933), Foxe identifies Cranmer as saying 'you omitte these thinges which followe, which make the sense of Ambrose plain, reade them'. In subsequent editions Weston is (correctly) identified as the speaker (1570, p. 1603; 1576, p. 1368; 1583, p. 1439).

Weston. You omit those wordes which follow, which maketh the sense of Ambr. playne. Read them.

Yong. MarginaliaAmbros. De Sacr. Cap. 5. Cœlum non erat, mare non erat, terra non erat. Sed audi dicentem: Ipse dixit & facta sunt, ipse mandauit & creata sunt. Ergo tibi vt respondeam, non erat corpus Christi ante consecrationem, sed post consecrationem dico tibi quòd iā * Marginalia*Alloiosis rerum & symbolorū. corpus Christi est. That is. Heauen was not, the sea was not, the earth was not, but heare hym that sayd: he spake the word and they were made: he commaunded, and they were created. Therfore to answer thee, it was not the body of Christ before consecration, but after the consecratiō I say to thee, that now it is the body of Christ.

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Cran. All these thinges are common. I say that God doth chiefly worke in the sacraments.

Yong. How doth he worke?

Cran. By his power as he doth in Baptisme.

Yong. Nay, by the word he chaungeth the bread into his body. This is the truth: acknowledge the truth: geue place to the truth.

Cran. O glorious wordes: you are to full of wordes.

Yong. Nay, O glorious truth: you make no chaunge at all.

Cran. Not so, but I make a great change: as in them that are baptised, is there not a great chaunge, when the child of the bondslaue of the deuill, is made the sonne of God? So it is also in the sacrament of the supper when he receiueth vs into his protection & fauour.

Yong. If he worke in the sacramentes, he worketh in this sacrament.

Cran. God worketh in his faythfull, not in the Sacramentes:

West. In the supper the wordes are directed to the bread: in Baptisme to the spirit. He sayd not, the water is the spirit: but of the bread he said: This is my body.

MarginaliaAs the Doue is called the spirite: so the bread is called the body. Cran. He called the spirit a Doue, when the spirit descended in likenes of a Doue. 

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The Rerum reads 'columbum vocat spiritum, cum spiritus descenderet in specie columbae' (Rerum, p. 655). Someone with an uncertain grasp of both theology and Latin translated this as 'he called the dove the spirit, when the spirit descended in lykeness of a dove' (1563, p. 953). In later editions, this was corrected to 'he calleth the spirit a Dove, when the spirite descended in likeness of a Dove' (1570, p. 1604; 1576, p. 1368; 1583, p. 1439). This is a recurring issue in the 1570 edition: the need to correct faulty Latin translations made in the 1563 edition.

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West. He doth not call the spirit a Doue: but he saith, that he descended as a Doue. He was sene in the likenes of a Doue. As in Baptisme, the words are directed to hym that is baptised, so in the Supper the wordes are directed vnto the bread.

Cran. Nay it is written: Vpon whomsoeuer thou shalt see the spirit descendyng. MarginaliaIohn. 1. He calleth that which descended, the holy spirit. And Augustine callleth the doue the spirit. Heare what Augustine sayth in. 1. Iohn. MarginaliaAugust. in Iohn. cap. 1. Quid voluit per columbam, id est, per spiritum sanctum, docere, qui miserat eum. That is: What ment he by the doue, that is, by þe holy ghost? forsooth to teach who sent hym.

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Yong. He vnderstandeth of the spirit descendyng as a doue: the spirit is inuisible. If you mynd to haue the truth heard, let vs procede. Heare what Ambrose saith MarginaliaAmbrose again repeated. De Sacrament. cap. 4. Vides quam operatorius sit sermo Christi. Si ergo tanta vis in sermone domini. &c. vt supra. That is: You see what a workyng power the word of Christ hath.  

Commentary  *  Close

In the edition of 1563, no translation was provided for the sentence 'Vides quam sit sermo Christi' (1563, p. 953). A sentence translating this as 'You see what a working power the word of Christ hath' was added in the 1570 edition (see textual variant 53).

Therfore if there be so great power in the lordes worde, that those thinges which were not, begin to bee, how much more of strength is it to worke that those thinges that were, should be chaunged into an other thyng?

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And in the 5. chap. MarginaliaIdem. cap. 5. Antequam consecretur, panis est: vbi autem verba Christi accesserint, corpus est Christi. i. Before it be consecrated, it is bread: but when the words of Christ come to it, it is the body of Christ.

But heare what he sayth more: Accipite, edite, hoc est corpus meū: Take ye, eate ye, this is my body. Ante verba Christi calix est vini & aquæ plenus: vbi verba Christi operata fuerint, ibi sanguis efficitur, qui redemit plebem. That is: Before the wordes of Christ, the cuppe is full of wyne and water: when the wordes of Christ haue wrought, there is made the bloud of Christ, which redemed the people. What can be more playne?

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MarginaliaAunswere to Ambrose. Cran. Nay, what can be lesse to the purpose? The woordes are of strength to worke in this sacrament, as they are in Baptisme.

Pie. The wordes of Christ (as Ambr. sayth) are of strēgth to worke. What do they worke? Ambrose sayth, they make the bloud which redemed the people.

Ergo the naturall bloud is made.

Cran. The sacrament of his bloud is made. The wordes make the bloud to them that receiue it: not that the bloud is in the cup, but in the receiuer.

Pie. There is made the bloud which redemed the people.

Cranmer. The bloud is made: that is, the sacrament of the bloude, by which he redeemed the people. [Fit] it is made:

that
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