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1414 [1389]

Q. Mary. D. Harpesfield disputeth for his forme. Weston oppseth.

Marginalia1554. Aprill.the fiercenes and interruption of the Doctors, the full pith and ground of al their argumēts, the censures of the Iudges, the railyng language of the Oblocutor, with his blast of triumphe in the latter ende, being both the actor, the moderator, and also Iudge him selfe. And what maruel then if the courage of this victorious conquerour, hauing the lawe in his own hands, to doo & say what hym listed, would say for hym self, Vicit veritas, although he said neuer a true worde, nor made neuer a true conclusion almost in all that disputation.

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It folowed furthermore after disputation of these three dayes being ended, that M. Harpsfield the next day after, which was the. xix. of April, 

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Harpsfield's 'Forme'

In a departure from the earlier disputations, the beginning of this section consists of a dialogue between catholics, with Harpsfield being presented with various heretical opinions to refute. Thus, the points are all against Foxe: the moment that catholic truth is vindicated is seen as the end of the debate; Foxe wages a campaign from the margins, sniping at logic ('This aunswere doth not satisfie the argument for the conclusion speaketh of a bodyly absence, the aunswere speaketh of a spirituall remayning', '* The argument holdeth a proportione'), emphasising the unity of Christ (with its links to the singleness of his sacrifice) at the gloss '* What maner so euer ye giue to the body, if the substanciall body be here in deede, it cannot be auoyded, but eyther it must needes be false that S. Aug. sayth. Non est hic, or els Christ must haue 2. bodyes in 2. places together present here after one maner, & in heauē after an other maner' and the admission he sees in Harpsfield's speech at the gloss 'Note what Harpsfield here holdeth, that the body of Christ is not present in the Sacrament, but onely to them that receiue him worthely' of the importance of worthy receiving of the sacrament (which he later throws back at Harpsfield in another gloss: 'Harpsfield seemed a little before to note the contrary, where he sayd: that the flesh of Christ to them that receaue him not worthely is not present pag. 1401').

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Once Cranmer is introduced, the marginal glosses seek to convey the impression of arid scholastic confusion which is stronger here than previously. Perhaps this is because of the difference between structure and the occasion: earlier on, the sense of plucky martyrs set against growling interrogators predominated, but the yoking together of Harpsfield's 'forme' and the investigation of Cranmer makes it propitious to emphasise the confusion of the situation. Hence the portrayal of the examiners present as 'Rabines' ('The Rabines could not agree among themselues'), which both picks up on an earlier reapplication to catholics of a Judaizing insult of the protestants by Harpsfield ('* No, but those Iewes, sticking so much to the old custome and face of theyr Church, & not seeking for knowledge, by ignorance of the Scriptures were deceiued & so be you'), and links up with the mockery of the gloss 'The Doctours in a doubt'. These references are closely followed by jibes at the scholastic arguments of the doctors ('M. Ward in the misty cloudes of dunses quiddities' and 'Aristotle must helpe to tell vs how Christ is in the Sacrament'). Although glosses to the earlier disputations emphasise the figurative, tropical aspects of scripture and thus provide an implicit critique of pursuing a scholastic path of enquiry, this is the strongest explicit criticism, and can be seen as part of a shift in the focus of Foxe's attack. It also perhaps helps to defend Foxe's subjects against the charge of doctrinal variety within their ranks. Foxe had given an energetic defence of Luther during Latimer's disputation: the associations between the singleness of Christ's sacrifice and the singleness of the Christian truth adhered to by the martyrs relied upon the unity of the martyrs' doctrine. For mistakes/inaccuracies across editions, see the glosses 'Aprill. 19' and 'Aprill. 1. The iudgement of M. Harpsfield for the best way to vnderstād the Scriptures' (1576 and 1583), 'Aprill. 19' (1570), 'Harpsfield seemed a little before to note the contrary, where he sayd: that the flesh of Christ to them that receaue him not worthely is not present pag. 1401' (1576 and 1583) and 'Harpsfield seemed a litle before to note the contrary, where he sayd: that the flesh of Christ to them that receaue hym not worthely, is not present. pag. 1628' (1570).

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MarginaliaAprill. 19. should dispute for his forme, to be made doctor. To the whiche disputation the Archb. of Cant. was brought forth, and permitted among the rest to vtter an argument or two, in defence of his cause. As in sequele hereof may appeare.

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¶ Disputation of Maister Harpsfield Bacheler of Diuinitie, aunswearing for his forme to be made Doctour. 
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Block 21: John Harpsfield's doctorial disputation

Following the formal disputations, Cranmer was invited to participate in the disputations held as part of John Harpsfield's receiving his D.D. Foxe included this disputation for two reasons: firstly, the debate was on the eucharist and, secondly, Cranmer did much better in it than he had done in his formal disputation.

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As with Latimer's disputation, Foxe's version of this disputation remained essentially unchanged from the Rerum to the 1583 edition. In this case, however, Foxe seems to have been relying solely on notes taken by an eyewitness to the debate. (Passages in the text indicating that it was based on notes from an eyewitness are 'wherunto maister Ward ... as it is thought he spake them' (1563, p. 988; 1570, p. 1629; 1576, p. 1390; 1583, p. 1461)). The comments, such as the claim that Ward based his argument on Duns Scotus but not on Scripture (1563, p. 988; 1570, p. 1629; 1576, p. 1390; 1583, p. 1461), indicate that this note-taker was protestant in sympathy. (This is also likely because these notes reached Foxe during his exile). The Rerum account of the disputation (Rerum, pp. 997 [recte 697]-704) was translated accurately in 1563, pp. 986-991.

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¶ Harpsfield.

MarginaliaApril. 1. The iudgement of M. Harpsfield for the best way to vnderstand the Scriptures. I Am not ignoraunt what a weighty matter it is, to entreate of the whole order and trade of the scriptures: and most hard it is too, in the great contention of Religion, to shewe the readye way, whereby the scriptures may be best vnderstanded. For the often reading of them doth not bring the true vnderstanding of them. What other thing is there then? Verily this is the ready way, not to folow our own heades and senses, MarginaliaIf M. Harp. had willed vs to submit our sences to the holy ghost he had said much betterbut to geue ouer our iudgement vnto the holy Catholike Churche, who hath had of olde yeares the truth, and alwayes deliuered the same to their posteritie: but if the often reading of scriptures and neuer so painfull comparing of places should bring the true vnderstandyng, then diuers heretikes might preuaile euen agaynste whole general Councels. The * Marginalia* No, but those Iewes, sticking so much to the olde custome and face of their church, & not seeking for knowledge, by ignorāce of the scriptures were deceiued & so be you. Iewes did greatly brag of the knowledge of the law, and of the Saueour, that they wayted for. But what auailed it thē? Notwithstanding I knowe right well, that diuers places of the scripture doo much warne vs of the often reading of the same, and what fruite doth thereby folow: as Scrutamini. &c. Search the Scriptures: for they doo beare witnes of me. &c. Lex domini. &c. The lawe of the Lord is pure able to turne soules. And that saying of S. Paul: Omnis Scriptura. &c. All Scripture inspired from aboue, doth make that a man maye be instructed to al good workes. Howbeit, doth the law of the Iewes conuert their soules? are they by reading instructed to euery good worke? The letter of the olde Testament is the same that we haue.

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The heretiques also haue euer had the same Scriptures which we haue that be Catholiques. But they are serued as Tantalus that the Poetes do speake of, who in the plentie of thinges to eate and drinke, is saide to be oppressed with hunger and thirst. The swifter that men doo seeke the scriptures without the Catholike church, the deeper they fall, and find hell for the labor. S. Cyprian neuer swaruing from the Catholike Church, saith: He that doth not acknowledge the Church to be his mother, shall not haue God to be his father. 

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S. Cyprian

The following information is kindly supplied by D H Frost of St David's Catholic College, Cardiff. Citations are derived from his work in progress onSacrament an Alter (SA), a Tudor Catholic eucharistic catena, drawn from Foxe's 1576 account of the Oxford Disputations, translated into Cornish and appended to the Cornish translation of Bishop Bonner's Homilies, BL Add. MS 46397.

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In TH 39a [=f39v] - i.e. this passage is also quoted in Bishop Bonner's Homilies of 1555, and therefore in 'Tregear’s Homilies', TH, the Cornish translation of this work bound with SA

He that doth not acknowledge the Church to be his mother, shall not haue God to be his father.

Therfore it is true Diuinitie, to be wise with the Church, where Christ saith: Nisi manducaueritis. &c. Vnlesse ye eate my fleshe, and drinke my bloud: ye haue no life in you.

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If he had meant of onely eating bread, and drinkyng wyne, nothyng had bene more pleasaunt to the Capernaites, neither would they haue forsaken hym. The fleshe profiteth nothing, to them that doo so take it. For the Capernaites dyd imagine Christe to be geuen in such sorte, as he lyued. But Christe spake high thinges: not that they shoulde haue hym as fleshe in the market, but to consider his presence with the spirite, * Marginalia* Vnder the formes that is, vnder the properties of bread & wine & so all this is true. vnder the formes whereby it is geuen. As there is an alteration of bodyes by courses, and tymes of ages, so there is no lesse * MarginaliaIn the materiall eating of mans body there is no varietie: for to eate mans flesh either vnder accidēces or not accidēces both is against the scripture and against nature. varietie in eatyng of bodyes.

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These thinges which I haue recited briefly, Maister Harsfield did with many more words set out: and hereupō D. Weston disputed against hym.

West. Christes real body is not in the sacrament.

Ergo, you are deceyued.

Harps. I deny the antecedent.

West. Iohn the vi. Dico veritatem vobis. &c. I speake the truth vnto you: It behoueth me that I goe away from you. For vnlesse I do depart, that comforter can not come. &c.

Vpon this, I wyl make this argument.

MarginaliaArgument.Christ is so gone away as he did sende the holy Ghost.

But the holy Ghost did verely come into the world:

Ergo Christ is verily gone.

Harps. MarginaliaThis answeare doth not satisfie the argumēt for the conclusion speaketh of a bodily absence, the answere speketh of a spirituall remaining.He is verily gone, and yet remaineth here.

West. S. Augustine saith, that these wordes: Ego ero. etc. I wyl be with you, euen to the ende of the worlde, 

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Weston on S. Augustine

The following information is kindly supplied by D H Frost of St David's Catholic College, Cardiff. Citations are derived from his work in progress onSacrament an Alter (SA), a Tudor Catholic eucharistic catena, drawn from Foxe's 1576 account of the Oxford Disputations, translated into Cornish and appended to the Cornish translation of Bishop Bonner's Homilies, BL Add. MS 46397.

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in SA?

S. Augustine saith, that these wordes:Ego ero. etc.I wyl be with you, euen to the ende of the worlde, are accomplishedsecundum maiestatem,Accordyng to hys maiesty: Butsecundum præsentiam carnis, non est hic,By the presence of his flesh he is not here.

are accomplished secundum maiestatem, Accordyng to hys maiesty: But secundum præsentiam carnis, non est hic, By the presence of his flesh he is not here. The Church hath hym not in fleshe, but by beliefe.

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Harps. We must diligently weigh that there are two natures in Christ: the diuine nature, & humane nature. The diuine nature is of such sort, that it can not choose but be in all places. The humane nature is not suche, that of force it must be in al places, although it be in diuers, after a diuers maner. So where that the doctors do entreate of his presence by maiestie, they doo commend the maiestie of the Diuine nature, not to hinder vs of the * Marginalia* If the naturall presence is heer, then is it false that S. August. sayth, secundū presentiam carnis, non est hic. naturall presence here in the sacrament.

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West. He saith further: Me autem non semper habebitis: ye shall not haue me alwayes with you, is to be vnderstanded in the fleshe.

Harps. The presence of the fleshe is to be considered, that he is not here as he was woont to lyue in conuersation with them, to be seene, talked withall, or in such sorte as a man may geue hym * Marginalia* And how can we then giue honor to hym, to whome we can shew no charitie nor giue any thing els vnto? any thing: after that sort he is not present.

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West. But what say you to this of S. Augustine: Non est hic: He is not here?

Harps. I do answere out of S. Augustine vpon Iohn, Tractatu. 25. vpon these wordes. Non videbitis me. Vado ad patrem. &c. I go to the father: ye shal not see me: 

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S. Augustine

The following information is kindly supplied by D H Frost of St David's Catholic College, Cardiff. Citations are derived from his work in progress onSacrament an Alter (SA), a Tudor Catholic eucharistic catena, drawn from Foxe's 1576 account of the Oxford Disputations, translated into Cornish and appended to the Cornish translation of Bishop Bonner's Homilies, BL Add. MS 46397.

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not in SA

… out of S. Augustine vpon Iohn, Tractatu. 25. vpon these wordes.Non videbitis me. Vado ad patrem. &c.I go to the father: ye shal not see me: that is, such as I now am.

that is, such as I now am. Therfore I do deny the Marginalia* What maner so euer ye giue to the body, if the substātial body be heer in deed, it cannot be auoyded but either it must needs be false that S. Aug. saith. Non est hic. Or els Christe must haue ij bodyes in ij places together present heer after one maner, & in heauen after another maner.manner of his presence.

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West. I wyll ouerthrow S. Augustine with S. Augustine: who saith this also: Quomodo quis possit tenere Christum? fidem mitte & tenuisti. that is, How may a man hold Christ? send thy fayth, and thou holdest hym.

So he sheweth, that by sending our fayth, we doe holde Christ.

Harps. In deede no man holdeth Christ, vnlesse he beleue in hym: but it is an other thing to haue Christ mercyfull and fauourable vnto vs, and to haue hym present in the sacrament.

There s. Augustine speaketh of holding hym by faith, as he is fauorable vnto vs.

West. Nay, he speaketh there howe the Fathers had him in the flesh, and teacheth that we haue hym not so in flesh, as they had hym long tyme, saying: Your fathers dyd hold Christe present in the flesh, do you holde him in your hart. 

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Augustine

The following information is kindly supplied by D H Frost of St David's Catholic College, Cardiff. Citations are derived from his work in progress onSacrament an Alter (SA), a Tudor Catholic eucharistic catena, drawn from Foxe's 1576 account of the Oxford Disputations, translated into Cornish and appended to the Cornish translation of Bishop Bonner's Homilies, BL Add. MS 46397.

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not in SA

Your fathers dyd hold Christe present in the flesh, do you holde him in your hart … He is gone, and is not here: he hath leaft vs, and yet hath not forsaken vs.Hic est maiestate, abijt carne:He is here in maiestie, and gone touching the fleshe.

What wordes can be more plaine? Further he saith: He is gone, and is not here: he hath leaft vs, and yet hath not forsaken vs. Hic est maiestate, abijt carne: He is here in maiestie, and gone touching the fleshe.

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Harps. MarginaliaNote what Har. heer holdeth, that the body of Christ is not present in the sacrament, but onely to thē that receiue him worthyly.I doo vnderstand Austine thus: that Christ is here in his flesh to them that receiue hym worthely: to such as doe not worthely receyue him, to them hee is not present in the flesh. I iudge s. Augustine meaneth so. We haue hym, and haue him not: we haue hym in receiuyng hym worthely, otherwise not.

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West. Nay: Tenere carnem est tenere corticem literæ: I wyll prosecute an other argument. Cyrillus doth say: By the maiesty of his diuinitie he is euer here, but the presence of his flesh he hath taken away. 

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Cyrillus

The following information is kindly supplied by D H Frost of St David's Catholic College, Cardiff. Citations are derived from his work in progress onSacrament an Alter (SA), a Tudor Catholic eucharistic catena, drawn from Foxe's 1576 account of the Oxford Disputations, translated into Cornish and appended to the Cornish translation of Bishop Bonner's Homilies, BL Add. MS 46397.

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By the maiesty of his diuinitie he is euer here, but the presence of his flesh he hath taken away.

I have yet to positively identify this passage, which is very typical of a great deal of St Cyril's Christology. There is much of relevance in St Cyril of Alexandria,Adversus Anthropomorphitas, 1, 19- PG 76, 1113-4C: egQuocirca erat quidem in terra, visus secundum carnem homo; pleni autem nihilominus ipsius divinitatis erant coeli- and a great deal more in this and the preceeding chapter.

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Harps. This sense of Cyrill is thus to be vnderstanded: The moste true fleshe of Christe is at the right hande of the father. Thus the fathers taught, and so they beleeued. Thus sayd Cyrill: thus sayd Augustine, and because this is the foundation of our fayth, they did oftentymes teache it. Therefore, when they proue this, (the bodye to be in heauen,) they doo not make against the Marginalia* If the presence of his flesh be taken away as Cyrill saith, how then can the presence of his flesh be in the sacrament.presence in the sacrament.

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So vnles ye can plainly shew, that the fathers doo directly say, he is not in the sacrament, you make nothyng against me: for I haue shewed why the Fathers so spake. They dyd teach the great difference betwene the diuine nature, and the humane nature, as I haue before sayd.

West. I wyll then proue, that he is not in the sacrament. Vigilius against the hereticke Eutiches, vpon these wordes: Me autem non semper habebitis, 

Latin/Greek Translations  *  Close
Vigilius against Eutiches

The following information is kindly supplied by D H Frost of St David's Catholic College, Cardiff. Citations are derived from his work in progress onSacrament an Alter (SA), a Tudor Catholic eucharistic catena, drawn from Foxe's 1576 account of the Oxford Disputations, translated into Cornish and appended to the Cornish translation of Bishop Bonner's Homilies, BL Add. MS 46397.

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in SA?

Me autem non semper habebitis: The sonne of God, as touching his humanitie is gone from vs, by his diuinitie he remaineth with vs.And that same Vigilius in his fourth booke saith:… the heauen, is not in the earth, …

sayth: The sonne of God, as touching his humanitie is gone from vs, by his diuinitie he remaineth with vs: And that same Vigilius in his fourth booke saith: He that is in the heauen, is not in the earth, speaking of Christ.

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Harps. I wyl shewe you the reason of these wordes. The hereticke Eutiches dyd beleue that the diuine nature of Christ was fastned on the Crosse, and beleued that Christ had no naturall body. To this Vigilius said, that the humane nature was taken vp and ascended, whiche could not so haue done, vnlesse he had had a body. This he said not, to take away the * Marginalia* Vigilius saith, his body taken vp how then doth the same body reman stil, vnlesse either ye make him to haue ij. bodyes: or els make two contradictoryes true in one proposition. presence in the sacrament.

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