Critical Apparatus for this Page
View an Image of this PageCattley Pratt ReferencesCommentary on the Text
Names and Places on this Page
PopeRatramnus of Corbie
 
Person and Place Index  *  Close
Pope

Pope took part in a debate/conversation between Nicholas Ridley, and John Feckenham and Sir John Bourne on the nature of the eucharist, held while Ridley was a prisoner in the Tower (1563, p. 930; 1570, p. 1590; 1576, p. 1357; and 1583, p. 1427).

 
Person and Place Index  *  Close
Ratramnus of Corbie

Ninth century theologian known, among other works, for his De corpore et sanguine Domini, which emphasised the figurative nature of the elements of the Sacrament (1563, p. 929; 1570, pl. 1590; 1576, p. 1357; 1583, p. 1427

Also referred to as 'Bertram'

1451 [1427]

Queene Mary. Disputation of D. Ridley Bishop of London at Oxford.

MarginaliaAnno 1554. Aprill.bare towardes me, and howe glad they woulde be of an agreement.

But as I strayned to haue licence of thē in playn wordes to speak my minde, so me thought they graunted me it but vix or agrè. Well at the last I was content to take it for licenced, and so began to talke.

MarginaliaB. Ridley aunswering to Fecknam.To M. Fecknams argumentes of the manifold affirmatiō where no denial was, I answered: where is a multitude of affirmations in scripture, and where is one affirmation, all is one concerning the trueth of the matter: MarginaliaTruth in Scripture goeth not by number of affirmation where one is sufficient. for that any one of the Euangelists spake inspired by the holy ghost, was as true as that which is spoken of them all. It is as true that Iohn sayth of Christ: Ego sum ostium ouium. i. I am the dore of the sheepe, as if all had sayde it. For it is not in scripture as in witnes of men where the number is credited more then one, because it is vncertayne of whose spirit he doth speake. And where M. Fecknam spake of so many, affirming without any negation. &c. Syr sayd I, all they do affirme the thing which they ment. MarginaliaWords in Scripture must be taken with theyr meaning.Now if ye take theyr wordes to leaue theyr meaning then do they affirme what ye take, but not what they ment. 

Commentary  *  Close

A few distortions occurred in the printing of the dialogue from edition to edition. In 1563 (p 929), a passage reads 'then they do not affirme what ye take but what they ment' (my emphasis). In 1570 (p 1589), the word 'not' was omitted and this omission was repeated in subsequent editions (1576, p. 1356; 1583, p. 1427).

[Back to Top]
 
Cattley Pratt  *  Close
Cattley/Pratt, VI, Appendix, ref. page 435, line 11

{Cattley/Pratt alters the text to 'then do they not affirm what ye take, but what they meant".} This is the reading in the first edition; subsequent editions read, "then do they affirm what ye take, but not what they meant." The double sense of the word "take" occasions some obscurity in this passage: it is used literally in the line before, "ye take their words;" but at the end of the paragraph it is used for "understand," "ye take my words," i. e. "understand;" and this seems to be the sense in which it is here used - "they do not affirm what ye take," i. e. understand, "but what they meant," i. e. you and they employ the same words in different senses.

[Back to Top]
Syr sayde I, if in talke with you, I should so vtter my minde in words, that ye by the same do, and may playnely perceiue my meaning & could (if ye wold be captious) cauil at my words & writh them to an other sense, I would thinke ye were no gentle companion to talke with, except ye would take my words as ye did perceiue that I did meane.

[Back to Top]

Mary, quoth M. Secretary, we should els do you plain iniury and wrong.

M. Fecknam perceiuing whereunto my talke went, why (quoth he) what circumstaunces can ye shew me that should moue to thinke of any other sense, then as the wordes playnely say: Hoc est corpus meum, quod pro vobis tradetur. i. This is my body which shall be betrayed for you?

MarginaliaHoc est corpus meū expoūded.Syr sayd I, euen the next sentence that foloweth: vix. Hoc facite in meam commemorationem. i. Do this in my remembraunce. MarginaliaReasons why these wordes ought to be takē not literally.And also by what reason, ye say the bread is turned into Christes carnall body: By the same I may say, that is turned into his misticall body. For as that sayth of it: Hoc est corpus quod pro vobis tradetur: so Paule which spake by Christes spirit sayth: Vnus panis & vnum corpus multi sumus omnes, qui de vno pane participamus. i. We being many are all but one bread and one body, in as much as we are partakers of one bread.

[Back to Top]

Here he calleth one bread, one loafe, sayd Mayster Seretary.

Yea sayd I, one loafe, one bread, all is one with me.

But what saye ye quoth maister Secretary, of the Vniuersalitye, antiquitye, and vnity, that M. Fecknam dyd speake of?

I ensure you sayd I, I thinke them matters weighty and to be considered well. MarginaliaVnitye with verity to be allowed.As for vnity, the truth is, before God, I doe beleue it and embrace it, so it be with verity, & ioyned to our head Christ, and such one as Paule, speaketh of saying: Vna fides, vnus Deus, vnum Baptisma. i. On fayth, one God, one Baptisme. MarginaliaAntiquitie.And for antiquity I am also persuaded to be true that Iræneus sayth: Quod primum verum. i. That is first is true. In our Religion Christes fayth was first truely taught by Christ himselfe, by his Apostles and by manye good men that from the beginning did succeede next vnto them: and for this controuersy of the Sacramēt I am perswaded, that those olde writers which wrote before the controuersye and the vsurping of the sea of Rome do all agree, if they be well vnderstanded in this truth.

[Back to Top]

I am glad to heare, sayd Maister Secretary, that ye do so well esteme the Doctors of the church.

MarginaliaVniuersalitye hath a double vnderstanding.Now as for vniuersality, it may haue 2.meanings: one to vnderstand that to be vniuersall which from the beginning in all ages hath bene alowed, another, to vnderstand vniuersalitye for the multitude of our age or of anye other singuler age.

No, no, sayth maister Secretary, these 3. doe alwayes agree, and where there is one, there is all the rest, and here he and I chaunged many wordes. And finally, to be shorte in this matter we did not agree.

There was none quoth mayster Fecknam, before Berengarius, Wickliffe, and Hus, and now in our dayes Carolostadius, Oecolampadius. And Carolostadius sayth, Christ poynteth to his owne body and not to the Sacrament, and sayde: Hoc est Corpus meum. MarginaliaMelancton ad Myconium.And Melancton writeth to one Micronius (Miconius sayde I) these or like wordes: Nullam satis grauem rationem inuenire possum, propter quam a fide maiorum in hac materia dissentiam. i. I can finde no grounded reason to cause me to dissent from the beliefe of our foreelders. 

Cattley Pratt  *  Close
Cattley/Pratt, VI, Appendix, ref. page 435, note 1

Much the same sentiment occurs in a letter to Œcolampadius, dated April 8th, 1529. See Epist. Collect. tom. i. col. 1048.

[Back to Top]

MarginaliaThe doctrine of the Sacrament not new.Thus when hee had spoken at length, with manye other wordes mo: Sir sayd I, it is certain that other before these haue written of this matter. Not by the way onelye,

and obiter, as doth for the most all the olde writers, but euen ex professo, and theyr whole bookes intreat of it alone, as Bertram. 

Commentary  *  Close

'Bertram' is Ratramnus of Corbie, a ninth-century theologian known, among other works, for his De Corpore et sanguine Domini, which emphasised the figurative nature of the elements of the Sacrament (1563, p. 929; 1570, p. 1590; 1576, p. 1357; 1583, p. 1427).

Bertram said the Secretary, what man was he? & whō was he, 

Commentary  *  Close

In the first two editions, Bourne asks Ridley about Bertram: 'What man was he, and when was he?' (1563, p. 929; 1570, p. 1590). In the edition of 1576, this was mistakenly changed to 'What man was he and whom was he' (p. 1357); this was repeated in the next edition (1583, p. 1427).

 
Cattley Pratt  *  Close
Cattley/Pratt, VI, Appendix, ref. page 436, line 4

{Cattley/Pratt substitues 'when was he?' for 'whom was he'.} All the editions except those of 1563 and 1570 read "whom was he?" an evident corruption.

and how do ye know? &c. with many questions.

Syr quoth I, I haue read his booke: he proponeth the same which is now in controuersy, and aunswereth so dyrectly that no man may doubt but that he affirmeth, that þe substance of bread remaineth still in the Sacrament, and he wrote vnto Carolus Magnus.

Mary (quoth he) marke for there is a matter. He wrote quoth he, ad Henricum, and not ad Carolum, for no Authour maketh any such mention of Bertramus.

Yes quoth I, Trithemius in Catalogo illustrium scriptorū, 

Cattley Pratt  *  Close
Cattley/Pratt, VI, 436, fn 1

"Johannes Trithemius, Abbas Spanheimensis, Ord. S. Bened. anno 1500 claruit, pluribus scriptis editis celebris. Imprimis nomen meruit insigni opere de Scriptoribus Ecclesiasticis, ad sua tempora deducto, et Basiliæ 1494, primum; postea et Col. Agrip. 1581 divulgato." Hallervordii spicilegium de hist. Lat. as included in Supplementa et observat. ad Vossium cum præf. I. A. Fabricii. (Hamburgi, 1709, page 746.) The work of Vossius may itself also be consulted, page 644, Edit. 1651. Upon "Bertram," Mr. Gibbings' Preface (pp. 44 to 47) to An exact reprint of the Roman Index Expurgatorius (Dublin, 1837) will well repay a reference. - ED.

[Back to Top]
speaketh of him. Trithemius was but of late time: 
Cattley Pratt  *  Close
Cattley/Pratt, VI, 436: Appendix, ref. page 436, line 14

A very full account of this writer and his times is given in Zeigelbaver's "Historia Rei literariæ Ord. S. Bened." (Aug. Vind. 1754), tom. iii. from p. 217 to p. 333. On the particular work of Trithemius referred to, it is remarked: - "His itidem diebus inchoavit (T.) laboriosum opus de viris illustribus Ordinis S. B. in quatuor libros divisum, quorum priores duos an. 1492 perfecit, posteriores sequenti anno complevit, ut habet Chronicon Spanhemense. Opus tamen necdum typis in lucem prolatum fuisse anno 1507 memorat ipse in epistola ad Rogerium Sicambrum." (p. 255.)

[Back to Top]
but he speketh quoth I of them that were of antiquitye. Here, after much talke of Bertram, what authors haue ye quoth M. Secretry to make of the sacrament a figure?

Marginalia
Doctours that make the Sacrament but a figure.
Tertullianus. Gelasius Origine.
Syr quoth I, ye knowe (I thinke) that Tertullian 

Cattley Pratt  *  Close
Cattley/Pratt, VI, 436, fn 2

Tertullian contra Marcion, lib. iv. cap. 40. - ED.

in playne wordes speaketh thus: Hoc est corpus, id est, figura Corporis mei. i. This is my bodye, that is to say, a figure of my body. And Gelasius 
Cattley Pratt  *  Close
Cattley/Pratt, VI, 436, fn 4

Gelasius de duabus nat. in Christo, vol. v. page 475, in the Bibliotheca Patrum (Paris, 1575), where however the words are "et tamen esse non desinit substantia vel natura panis et vini." - ED.

sayth playnly that Substantia panis manet. i. The substaunce of bread remayneth. And Origene 
Cattley Pratt  *  Close
Cattley/Pratt, VI, 436, fn 6

Origen in Matthæum; tom. xi. ¶ 14, vol. iii. p. 499. Paris, 1740. - ED.

sayth likewise, Quod sanctificatur secundum materiam, ingreditur stomachum & vadit in secessum. i. That which is sanctified, as touching the matter or substance, passeth away into the draught. This when I had englished, M. Secretarye sayd to me, you know very well as any man. &c. and here, if I woulde, I might haue bene set in a foolishe Paradise of his commendation of my learning, and quòd essem vir multæ Lectionis. i. A manne of much readyng. 
Commentary  *  Close

The English translations of passages from patristic fathers and from the Vulgate, which appear throughout this dialogue, were introduced in the 1570 edition.

But thys I woulde not take at his hand. He set me not vp so high, but I brought my selfe as low againe: and here was much adoe.

[Back to Top]

As for Melancton (quoth I) whō M. Fecknam spake of, I maruell that ye will alledge him, for we are more nye an agrement here in England, then the opinion of Melā cton to you: for in this poynt we all agree here, that there is in the sacrament but one materiall substance: & Melanctō as I weene, sayth there are two.

[Back to Top]

Ye say trueth quoth M. Secretary: Melancthons opinion is so. But I pray you, ye haue read that the sacramēt was in olde time so reuerenced, that many were then forbidden to be present at the ministraton thereof. Catecumeni (quoth he) and many moe.

MarginaliaCatechumeni and others wēt out at the ministratiō.Truth sir (quoth I) there were called some Audientes, some Pœnitentes, some Catechumeni, and some Euergumeni, which were commaunded to depart.

Now (quoth he) then. And howe can ye then make but a figure or a signe of the Sacrament, as that booke whyche is set forth in my Lord of Canterburyes name, 

Commentary  *  Close

It is not clear to which book of Cranmer's Bourne is referring. He may have been citing Justas Jonas's catechism (STC 5992.5), which was produced under Cranmer's auspices. But, given the context, it is more probably a reference to Cranmer's Defence of the true and catholike doctrine of the sacrament of the body and bloode of Christ (STC 6000).

[Back to Top]
I wisse, ye can tell who made it, did not ye make it? & here was much murmuring of the rest, as though they would haue geuen me the glorye of the writing of the booke, MarginaliaThe booke of Catechisme.whiche yet there was sayd of some there, to conteyne most haynous heresy that euer was.

[Back to Top]

Mayster Secretary (quoth I) that booke was made of a great learned man, and him which is able to do the like a gain: as for me I ensure you (be not deceiued in me) I was neuer able to do or write any such like thing, he passeth me no lesse, then the learned mayster his yong scholer.

Now, here euery man would haue his saying, which I passe ouer, not much materiall for to tell. But sir quoth I, me thinkes it is not charitably done, to beare the people in hand that any man doth so lightly esteme the sacrament, as to make of it a figure. For that [but] 

Cattley Pratt  *  Close
Cattley/Pratt, VI, Appendix, ref. page 436, last line

"But" is wanting in the first edition.

maketh it a bare figure without any more profit, which that book doth often deny, as appeareth to the reader most playnely.

[Back to Top]

Yes quoth he that they do.

Sir, no quoth I, of a truth: and as for me I ensure you I make no lesse of the sacrament then thus: I say whosoeuer receiueth the sacrament, he receiueth therewith eyther life or death.

No quoth M. Secretary, scripture sayth no so.

Sir quoth I, although not in the same soūd of words, yet it doth in the same sense, and S. Augustine sayth, 

Cattley Pratt  *  Close
Cattley/Pratt, VI, 437, fn 1

"Eat life, drink life." [Sermo 131, De verbis Evang. Joh. vi. ¶ 1, tom. v. edit. Benedict. - ED.

in the sound of words also: for Paule sayth: The bread which we breake, is it not the partaking or felowship of the bodye of Christ? And S. Augustine, Manduca vitam, Bibe vitam, i. eate life, drinke life.

[Back to Top]

Then sayd mayster Pope, what can ye make of it whē ye say, there is not the reall body of Christ? Which I doe beleue. &c. & I pray God I may neuer beleue other. How can it bring (as ye say) either life or death, when Christes body is not there?

MarginaliaThe Sacrament may bring lyfe without transubstantiation.Syr quoth I, when you heare Gods word truely preached, if ye do beleue it and abide in it, ye shal and do receiue life withal: and if ye do not beleue it, it doth bring vnto you

death:
Go To Modern Page No:  
Click on this link to switch between the Modern pagination for this edition and Foxe's original pagination when searching for a page number. Note that the pagination displayed in the transcription is the modern pagination with Foxe's original pagination in square brackets.
Find:
Type a keyword and then restrict it to a particular edition using the dropdown menu. You can search for single words or phrases. When searching for single words, the search engine automatically imposes a wildcard at the end of the keyword in order to retrieve both whole and part words. For example, a search for "queen" will retrieve "queen", "queene" and "queenes" etc.
in:  
Humanities Research Institute  *  HRI Online  *  Feedback
Version 2.0 © 2011 The University of Sheffield