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1641 [1603]

Queene Mary. Disputation of Doct. Cranmer Archbishop of Cant. at Oxford.

Marginalia1554. Aprill.Cran. It worketh by institutyng, not by conuertyng.

Yong. The thyng signified in the Sacrament, is it not in that Sacrament?

Cran. It is. For the thyng is ministred in a signe. He foloweth the letter that taketh the thyng for the signe. MarginaliaAnswere to D. Yonge by Sainct Austen.Augustine separateth the Sacrament from the thyng. The Sacrament (sayth he) is one, and the thyng of the Sacrament an other.

West. Sticke to this Argument.

It is a figuratiue speach.

Ergo, it worketh nothyng.

Yong. But the speach of Christ is a workyng thyng:

Ergo, it is not figuratiue.

Cran. O how many craftes are in this Argument? they are mere fallacies: I sayd not that the wordes of Christ do worke, but Christ hym selfe: and he worketh by a figuratiue speach.

West. If a figure worke, it maketh of bread the body of Christ.

Cran. A figuratiue speach worketh not.

West. A figuratiue speach by your owne confession, worketh nothyng.

But the speach of Christ in þe Supper (as you graūt) wrought somewhat:

Ergo, the speach of Christ in the Supper was not figuratiue.

Cran. I aunswere: these are mere Sophismes: MarginaliaThe figuratiue speach worketh not, but Christ by the figuratiue speach worketh the Sacrament.the speach doth not worke, but Christ by the speach doth worke the Sacrament.

I looke for Scriptures at your handes: for they are the foundation of disputations.

Yong. Are not these wordes of Scripture: This is my body? The word of Christ is of strength: and by the Lordes wordes the heauens were made. He said: This is my body: Ergo, he made it.

Cran. He made the Sacrament: and I deny your Argument.

Yong. If he wrought nothyng, nothyng is left there. He said: This is my body. You say contrary to the Scriptures, it is not the body of Christ, & fall from the fayth.

Cran. You interprete the Scriptures contrary to all the old writers, and fayne a strange sense.

Yong. Ambros. De ijs qui initiantur sacris cap. 9. sayth: MarginaliaAmbros. De ijs qui initiātur, &c. cap. 9.De totius mundi operibus legisti, quia ipse dixit & facta sunt, ipse mandauit & creata sunt. Sermo Christi qui potuit ex nihilo facere quod non erat, non potest ea quæ sunt in id mutare quæ non erant? Non enim minus est nouas res dare, quam mutare naturas: Sed quid argumentis vtimur? suis vtamur exemplis, incarnationisq; exemplo astruamus mysterij veritatem. Nunquid naturæ vsus præcessit cum Dominus Iesus ex Maria nasceretur? Si ordinem quærimus, viro mixta fœmina generare consueuit. Liquet igitur ф præter naturæ ordinem virgo generauit: & hoc quod conficimus corpus ex virgine est. Quid hic quæris natnræ ordinem in Christi corpore, cum præter naturam sit ipse Dominus Iesus partus ex virgine? vera vtiq; caro Christi quæ Crucifixa est, quæ sepulta est: verè ergò illius Sacramentum est. Clamat Dominus Iesus: Hoc est corpus meum. Ante benedictionem verborum cœlestium alia species nominatur, post consecrationem corpus significatur. Ipse dicit sanguinem suum. Ante consecrationem aliud dicitur: post consecrationem sanguis nuncupatur. Et tu dicis, Amen: hoc est verum est. Quod os loquitur, mens interna fateatur: quod Sermo sonat, affectus sentiat. That is.

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Thou hast read of the workes of all the world, that he spake the word and they were made: he cōmaunded and they were created. Can not the worde of Christ which made of nothyng, that which was not, chaunge those thynges that are, into that they were not? For it is no lesse matter to geue new thinges, thē to chaūge natures. But what vse we Argumētes? let vs vse hys own examples, & let vs confirme þe veritie of þt mystery by example of hys incarnation. Dyd the vse of nature go before, whē the Lord Iesus was borne of Mary? If you seeke þe order of nature, conception is wont to be made by a woman ioyned to a man. It is manifest therfore, that contrary to the * Marginalia* As Christ Iesus was conceaued agaynst the order of nature, so in the instituting of this Sacrament the order of nature is not to be sought. order of nature, a virgine did cōceyue: and this that we make, is the body of the virgine. What sekest thou here the order of nature in the body of Christ, when agaynst the order of nature, the Lord Iesus was concey-

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ued of a Virgine? It was the true flesh of Christ, which was crucifyed and which was buried: therfore it is truly the Sacrament of hym. The Lorde Iesus hym selfe cryeth: This is my body. Before the blessing of the heauenly wordes, it is named an other kynde: but after the consecration, the body of Christ is signifyed. He calleth it his bloud. Before consecration, it is called an other thing: after consecratiō it is called bloud, and thou sayest Amen: that is, it is true. That the mouth speaketh, let the inward mynd confesse: that the word soundeth, let the hart perceyue.

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The same Ambrose in hys fourth booke of Sacramentes the 4. chap. sayth thus: MarginaliaAmbrosius Lib. De Sacramentis Cap. 4.Panis iste, panis est ante verba Sacramentorum: vbi accesserit consecratio, de pane sit caro Christi. Hoc igitur astruamus: quomodo potest, qui panis est, corpus esse Christi consecratione? consecratio igitur quibus verbis est, & cuius sermonibus? Domini Iesu. Nam ad reliqua omnia quæ dicuntur, laus deo defertur, oratione petitur pro populo, pro regibus, pro cæteris: vbi venitur vt conficiatur venerabile Sacramentum, iam non suis sermonibus Sacerdos vtitur, sed sermonibus Christi. Ergo sermo Christi hoc conficit Sacramētum. Quis sermo? nempe is quo facta sunt omnia. Iussit Dominus & factum est cœlum: iuisit Dominus & facta est terra: iussit dominus & facta sunt Maria, &c. Vides ergo quam operatorius sit sermo Christi. Si ergo tanta vis est in sermone Domini, vt inciperent esse quæ non erant, quanto magis operatorius est, vt sint quæ erant & in aliud commutentur. That is to say.

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MarginaliaThe words of Ambrose in Englishe.This bread is bread before the wordes of the Sacraments. When the consecration commeth to it, of bread it is made the flesh of Christ. Let vs confirme this therfore: how can that which is bread, by consecratiō be the body of Christ? by what wordes thē is þe consecration made, & by whose wordes? by the wordes of our Lord Iesus. For touchyng all other thynges that are sayd, prayse is geuen to God, prayer is made for the people, for kyngs, and for the rest. When it commeth, that the reuerend Sacrament must be made, then the Priest vseth not hys owne wordes, but the wordes of Christ: therfore the word of Christ maketh this Sacrament. What worde? That word, by which all thynges were made. The Lord * Marginalia* But the Lord Iesus here vsed not such wordes of cōmaunding in the Sacramēt as in creation: for we read not, fiat hoc corpus meum, as we read, fiat lux. &c. cōmaunded, and heauen was made: the Lord cōmaunded, and the earth was made: the Lord commaūded, and the Seas were made: the Lord cōmaunded, and all creatures were made. Doest thou not see then how strong in working þe word of Christ is? If therfore, so great strēgth be in the Lordes word, that those thynges should begyn to be which were not before, how much the rather is it of strength to worke that these thinges which were, should be chaunged into an other thyng?

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Ambrose sayth, that the wordes are of strength to worke.


Commentary  *  Close

In the Rerum, (p. 654) and 1563 (p. 933), Foxe identifies Cranmer as saying 'you omitte these thinges which followe, which make the sense of Ambrose plain, reade them'. In subsequent editions Weston is (correctly) identified as the speaker (1570, p. 1603; 1576, p. 1368; 1583, p. 1439).

West. You omit those wordes which follow, which maketh the sense of Ambrose playne. Reade them.

Yong. MarginaliaAmbros. De Sacr. Cap. 5.Cœlum non erat, mare non erat, terra non erat. Sed audi dicentem: Ipse dixit, & facta sunt, ipse mandauit & creata sunt. Ergo tibi vt respondeam, non erat corpus Christi ante consecrationem, sed post consecrationē dico tibie quòd iā * Marginalia*Alloiosis rerum & symbolorum. corpus Christi est. That is. Heauen was not, the sea was not, the earth was not, but heare him that sayd: he spake the woord, and they were made: he commaunded, and they were created. Therefore to answer thee, it was not the body of Christ before consecration, but after the consecration I say to thee, that now it is the body of Christ.

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Cran. All these thinges are common. I say that God doth chiefly worke in the Sacramentes.

Yong. How doth he worke?

Cran. By his power, as he doth in Baptisme.

Yong. Nay, by the word he chaungeth the bread into his body. This is the truth: acknowledge the truth: geue place to the truth.

Cran. O glorious wordes: you are to full of wordes.

Yong. Nay, O glorious truth: you make no chaunge at all.

Cran. Not so, but I make a great chaūge: as in them that are baptised, is there not a great chaunge, when the childe, of the bondslaue of the deuill, is made the sonne of God? So it is also in the sacrament of the supper, when he receiueth vs into his protection & fauour.

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