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1668 [1630]

Quene Mary. Disputation of Doct. Harpsfield. The Archbishop opposeth.

MarginaliaAn. 1554. Aprill.quantitie in both, and so put of the antecedent: but thus sayd maister Harpsfield..

Harps. I deny your argument: though some would not haue had hym say so.

Cran. The argument is good. It standeth vpon contradictories, which is the most surest hold.

Harps. I deny that there are contradictions.

Cran. I thus proue it. Habere modum quantitatiuum & non habere, sunt contradictoria.

Sed Christus in cœlis vt dicitis, habet modum quantitatiuum, in terra non habet:

Ergo duo sunt corpora eius in quæ cadunt hæc contradictoria: Nam in idem cadere non possunt.

West. I deny the Minor.

Harps. I aunswere that the Maior is not true. For habere quantum, & non habere, non sunt contradictoria nisi si considerātur eiusdem ad idem, eodē modo & simpliciter.

West. I confirme the same: for one body may haue modum quantatiuum, and not haue: and MarginaliaArist. 4. Metaph. Impossibile est idē simul esse, & none esse. MarginaliaPassible and impassible can not stand together in one subiecte, simul & eiusdem respectu, & eodem tēpore, propter rerum pugnantiam. MarginaliaChristes body to be passible, and not impassible at the Supper, it appeareth by these wordes: that shall be geuē for you.idem corpus was passible, and impassible, one body may haue woundes, and not woundes.

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Cran. This can not be at one tyme.

West. The ensample of the potter doth proue that I say: who of that, that is clay now, maketh a potte or cup forthwith.

Cran. But I say agayne, that it is so but a diuers tymes: as one peece of meate to be raw and sodden, cā not be at one tyme together. But you would haue it otherwise, that Christ should be here and in heauē at one time: and should haue modum quantatiuum, and not haue: which can not be, by such Argument as I haue shewed you.

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West. But I say, Christes body was passible, and not passible at one * Marginalia* That remaineth yet vnproued. instant.

Seat. You may aske as well other questions, how he is in heauē? whether he sit or stand? and whether he be there, as he lyued here?

Cran. You your selfe, by puttyng a naturall presence, do force me to question how he is there. Therfore, next I do aske this question: whether good and euill mē, do eate the body in the Sacrament?

Harps. MarginaliaHarpsfield seemed a litle before to note the contrary, where he sayd: that the flesh of Christ to them that receaue hym not worthely, is not present. pag. 1628.Yea, they do so, euē as the Sunne doth shyne vpon kynges Pallaces, and on dong heapes.

Cran. Then do I enquire how long Christ taryeth in the eater?

Harps. These are curious questions, vnmeete to bee asked.

Cran. I haue taken them out of your Scholes and Scholemen, which you your selues do most vse: and there also do I learne to aske how farre he goeth into the body.

Harps. We know that the body of Christ is receyued to nourish the whole man concernyng both body and soule: Eousq; progreditur corpus quousq;* Marginalia* Sed species non progeditur vs ad animam:
Ergo, nec corpus Christi, & sic corpus Christi non pascit corpus & animam.

Cran. How long doth he abyde in the body?

Seat. S. Augustine sayth, our flesh goeth into his flesh. But after he is once receiued into the stomacke, it maketh no matter for vs to know how farre he doth perce or whether he is conueyed.

MarginaliaThese men would needes haue a bodily presence in the Sacramēt: yet will they not, or els can they not geue any reason how.☞ Here maister Tresham and one maister London aunswered, that Christ, beyng geuen there vnder such forme and quantitie as pleased hym, it was not to be enquired of hys tarying, or of his descēdyng into the body.

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Harps. You were wont to lay to our charge that we added to þe Scripture: saying alwayes that we should fetch the truth out of the Scripture: and now you your selfe bring questions out of the Scholemen, which you haue disalowed in vs.

Cran. I say, as I haue said alway, that I am constrayned to aske these questions, because of this carnall presence which you imagine: and yet I know right well that these questions be aunswered out of the Scriptures: As, to my last question: How lōg he abydeth in the body? &c. The scripture aūswereth plainly, that Christ

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doth so long dwell in his people, as they are his members. Wherupon I make this Argument. MarginaliaDoctour Cranmers argument in the 2. figure and 4. mode.

They which eate the flesh of Christ, do dwel in him,
and he in them.
But the wicked doe not remayne in hym nor hee,
in them:
Ergo, the wicked do not eate his flesh, nor drinke his

Harps. MarginaliaAunswer insufficiēt.I will aunswere vnto you as S. Augustine sayth, not that howsoeuer a man doth eate, he eateth the body: but he that eateth after a certaine maner.

Cran. I cannot tell what maner ye appoint: but I am sure that euill men do not eate the flesh and drinke the bloud of Christ, as Christ speaketh in the sixt of Iohn.

Harps. In the sixt of Iohn, some thynges are to be referred to the godly, and some to the vngodly.

Cran. Whatsoeuer he doth entreate there of eatyng, doth pertaine vnto good men.

Harps. If you do meane onely of the word of eatyng, it is true: if concernyng the thyng, it is not so: And if your meanyng be of that which is conteined vnder the word of eatyng, it may be so taken, I graunt.

Cran. Now to the Argument. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my bloud, dwelleth in me, and I in hym. MarginaliaEuill men do not eate the body of Christ. Doth not this proue sufficiently that euill men do not eate that the good do?

Tresh. You must adde: qui manducat dignè, he that eateth worthely.

Cran. I speake of þe same maner of eatyng that Christ speaketh of.

West. Augustinus ad fratres in Eremo Sermon. 28. Est quidam manducandi modus. i. There is a certaine maner of eatyng. Augustine speaketh of two maners of eatyng: the one of them that eate worthely, the other that eate vnworthely.

Harps. All thinges in the MarginaliaThe sixt chapt. of Iohn is to be referred partly to the Supper, partly to fayth after the Papistessixt of Iohn are not to be referred to the Sacrament, but to the receiuing of Christ by fayth. The fathers do agree that there is not entreaty made of the Supper of the Lord, before they come vnto, Panis quem dabo vobis, caro mea est. &c.

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Cran. There is entreatyng of Manna both before and after.

Harps. I wil apply an other aūswer. This Argumēt hath a kynd of poyson in it, which must be thus bitten away, that Manna and this Sacramēt be not both one. Manna hath not his efficacy of him selfe, but of God.

Cran. MarginaliaCōparison betwen eating of Manna, and eating the body of Christ.But they that did take Manna worthely, had fruite therby: and so by your assertiō, he that doth eate the flesh of Christ worthely, hath his fruite by that:

Therfore the lyke doth folow of them both: and so there should be no difference betwene Manna and this Sacrament by your reason.

Harps. When it is sayd, that they which did eate Manna, are dead, it is to be vnderstand that they dyd want the * vertue of Manna.

* If M. Harpsfield do meane of bodely lyfe, 

Commentary  *  Close

Foxe could not resist inserting into the narrative a counter-argument of his own to rebut Harpsfield (textual variant 65).

they which eate the Sacrament do dye, as well as they which dyd eate the Manna. If hee meane of spirtuall lyfe, neither be they all damned that dyd eate Māna, nor all saued, that do eate the Sacramēt. Wherfore the truth is, that neither the eatyng of Manna bringeth death, nor the eating of the Sacrament bryngeth saluation: but onely the spirituall beleuyng vpon Christes bodily Paßion, which onely iustifieth both them and vs. And therfore as the effect is spirituall, whch Christ speaketh of in ths chapter: so is the cause of that effect spirituall whereof he meaneth, which is our spirituall beleuyng in hym, and not our bodily eatyng of hym.

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Cran. They then which do eate either of thē worthely, do lyue.

Harps. They do lyue which do eate Manne worthely: not by Manna, but by the power of God geuen by it. The other which do eate this Sacrament, do lyue by the same.

Cran. Christ did not entreate of the cause, but the effect which folowed: he doth not speake of the cause wherof the effect procedeth.

Harps. I do say the effectes are diuers, life and death,

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