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1354 [1353]

Queene Mary. A fruitfull Dialogue betwene Custome and Truth.

MarginaliaAn. 1552. Hereof I gather this reason. Christes body can not both be gone and be here. But he is gone, and hath left the world: MarginaliaIf Christ were both gone and taried then he should seeme to haue left hym selfe behinde hym. Therfore it is folly to seeke hym in the world.

Cust. Fye 

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'Fie': expression of disgust.

, you be far deceaued. I can not in no wise brooke these wordes. You shut vp Christ to straitly, and imprison hym in one corner of heauen, not sufferyng hym to go at large. No, doubtlesse he hath deserued more gentlenes at your hand, then to be tyed vp so short.

Veri. I doe neither locke vp neither imprison Christ in heauen: but accordyng to the Scriptures declare that hee hath chosē a blessed place, & most worthy to receiue his Maiestie: in which place who so is inclosed, thinketh not hym selfe (as I suppose) to be a prisoner: but if you take it for so haynous a thing that Christ should sit resident in heauen in the glory of his father, MarginaliaThe body of Christ imprisoned by the Papistes in a boxe, and afterward burned when he is mouldye. what thinke you of them that imprison him in a litle boxe 

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'Little box': tabernacle or pyx used for reserving the Eucharist in the Catholic tradition.

, yea and kepe hym in captiuitie so long, vntil he be mouldy and ouergrowne with vermine 
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In the Catholic tradition it was understood that when the outward forms of bread and wine ceased to be outward forms of bread and wine, i.e., when the outward form of bread turns into mold or the outward form of wine turns into vinegar, Christ was no longer present. Such circumstances were rare and strictly guarded against by the clergy.

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, & when he is past mans meate, be not contented to hang hym till he stincke, but will haue hym to a new execution, and burne hym too? 
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'Burn him [Christ] too?'. If the Eucharist underwent the occurrences described above in the note for lines 266-267, or if an ill communicant coughed up some element of the host mixed with mucus or saliva, the clergy were to dispose of the elements (no longer recognized as Christ under the signs of bread) by burning them. Here Verity is alluding to the burning of heretics for believing the Eucharistic doctrines he is propounding in the reigns of Henry VIII, and probably Mary I.

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This is wonderfull and extreme cruell imprisonyng. But to returne to the matter, we are certainely perswaded by the word of God, that Christ the very sonne of God vouchsaued to take vppon hym the body and shape of man, and þt he walked & was conuersaunt amongest men in that same one, and not in many bodyes, and that he suffered death, arose agayne, and ascended to heauen in the selfe same body, and that he sitteth at his fathers right hand in his manhode, in the nature and substaunce of the sayd one body. This is our beliefe, this is the very word of GOD. Wherefore they are farre deceiued whiche leauyng heauen, will grope for Christes body vpon the earth.

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MarginaliaChristes body is spirituall in the Sacrament, say the Papistes. Cust. Nay sir but I see now you are farre out of the way. For Christ hath not so grosse and fleshly, as you thinke, but a spirituall and a Ghostly body, and therfore without repugnaunce it may be in many places at once.

Veri. You say right well, and do graunt that Christes body is spirituall. But I pray you aunswere me by the way: Cā any other body then that which is spirituall, be at one tyme in sondry places?

Cust. No truely.

Veri. Haue we that same selfe Sacramēt that Christ gaue to his Disciples at his Maundy 

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'Maundy': Christ's Last Supper remembered on Holy or Maundy Thursday, when he commanded ('maundy') the Apostles to continue celebrating the Eucharist as he had done that night.

, or no?

Cust. No doubtles, we haue the same.

Veri. When became Christes body spirituall? Was it so euē from his byrth?

Cust. No, for doubtles before he arose from death, his body was earthly as other mens bodyes are.

Veri. Well, but when gaue Christ the Sacrament to his Disciples? before he arose from death, or after?

Cust. You know your selfe he gaue it before his resurrectiō, the night before he suffred his Passion.

Veri. Why then me thinketh he gaue the Sacramēt at that tyme, when his body was not spirituall.

Cust. Euen so.

Veri. And was euery portion of the Sacrament delt to the Apostles, and receiued into their mouthes the very reall, & substantiall body of Christ?

Cust. Yea doubtles.

MarginaliaThe Popes doctrine repugnant to it selfe. Veri. Marke well what ye haue sayd, for you haue graūted me great repugnance. First you say that no body beyng not spirituall can be in sundry places at once. Then say you that at the maundy Christes body was not spirituall: and yet hold you that he was there present visible before the Apostles eyes, and in ech of their handes and mouthes all at one time: which graūtes of yours are not agreable. But I will gather a better and a more formall reason of your owne wordes, in this sort.

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No body being reall, naturall, and organicall, and not
spirituall, can be in many places at once.
Christes body in the Sacrament was in the Apostles
handes and mouthes at one time, which were many
Ergo, Christes body in the Sacrament was not a reall,
naturall, and organicall body, but spirituall. 
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An extremely simplistic view of the Catholic doctrine of the Eucharist is presented (or rather, in this case, not presented).

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MarginaliaThe Papistes though they be conuicted, yet they will not beleue. Cust. In deede you haue driuen me into the straites before I was ware of you, and I know not how I may escape your handes honestly. But the best refuge that I haue is this, I will not beleue you.

Veri. I desire you not to geue credence to me. Beleue the word of God, yea beleue your owne beliefe, for they both witnes against you that Christes body is takē vp into heauen, and there shall remaine vntill he come to Iudge.

Cust. Tushe, what speake you of the word of God? There be many darke sayinges therein, which euery man can not attaine to.

Veri. I graunt you there be certayne obscure places in the Scripture, yet not so obscure but that a man with the grace of God may perceiue: for it was written not for Aungels, but for men. MarginaliaCustome medleth but little with Scripture. But as I vnderstand Custome medleth but litle with Scripture 

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Protestants were most reluctant to acknowledge that the Bible was obscure in numerous places, whether due to the difficulties of translation or the meaning of certain words or passages in their contexts; Catholics recognized Scripture's opaqueness to the general reader in certain texts, and stated that the Church had ultimate authority - given to it by Christ - in their interpretation, using the resources of Church tradition, including the determination of General Councils and the writings of the Church Fathers, in sharp contrast to Verity's remark that 'Custom [tradition] meddles but little with Scripture'. In fact, as noted earlier, tradition and scripture were inextricably linked as the two modes of Christ's one revelation.

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. How say you by S. Augustine, S. Hierome, S. Ambrose, what if they stand on our side? 
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Verity uses the strategy of employing quotes from numerous Fathers of the Church upheld as some of the leading theologians of Catholicism to dismiss Catholic claims regarding the Eucharist. This strategy has its draw-backs, i.e., in the case of the Venerable Bede, whose Ecclesiastical History of the English People possessed numerous accounts of Catholic worship and piety which the Reformers rejected.

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Cust. No, no, I know them well inough.

Veri. So well as you know them, for all old acquaintaūce if they be called to witnes they will geue euidence agaynst you. For S. Augustine commōly in euery of his bookes, but chiefly in an Epistle to his frende Dardanus, declareth that Christes body is placed in one rowme. I meruall you be not nearer of his counsell. His wordes are these: Noli dubitare ibi nunc esse hominem Christum Iesum, vnde venturus est. Memoriterq̀ recole & fideliter crede Christianam confessionem: quoniam resurrexit, ascēdit in cœlum, sedet a dextris Dei patris, nec aliundè quam indè venturus est, ad viuos mortuosq̀ iudicandos. Et venturus est in eadem corporis substantia: cui immortalitatem dedit, naturam non abstulit. Secundum hanc formā non est putandus vbiq̀ diffusus. Cauendum enim est, ne ita diuinitatem astruamus hominis, vt humanitatem amittamus Dei. i. MarginaliaAugust. ad Dardanum. Doe not doubt the man Iesus Christ to be there, frō whence he shall come. And remēber well, and faithfully beleue the Christian cōfession, that he is rysen, ascended into heauen, sitteth at the ryght hand of God the father, and from thence shall come and frō no other place, to iudge the quicke & the dead. And shall come in the same substaunce of body, to which he gaue immortalitie, & tooke not the nature frō it. After this forme he is to be thought not to be dispersed in all places, for we must beware so to defend his Diuinitie, that we destroy not his humanitie. And in an other place of the same epistle. Vna persona Deus & homo, & vtrumq̀ est vnus Christus. Vbiq̀ per id quod Deus, in cœlo autem per id quod homo. MarginaliaAugust. ibid. Likewise vpon the 14. Psalme. Donec sæculum finiatur sursum est Dominus: sed etiam hic nobiscum est veritas Domini. Corpus enim in quo resurrexit, in vno loco esse oportet, veritas autem eius vbique diffusa est. i. MarginaliaAugust. in Psal. 14. While the world shall last, the lord is aboue, and also the veritie of the Lord is with vs. For the body wherin he rose agayne must be in one place. But the veritie of him is euery where dispersed. In like maner writeth Damasus an old Byshop of Rome in his Credo. Deuictis mortis imperijs, cum ea carne in qua natus, & passus est, & resurrexit, ascendit in cælum, manente eadem natura carnis in qua natus & passus est. MarginaliaDamasus. S. Ambrose writyng vpon the x. chapt. of Luke recordeth the same: Ergo, nec supra terrā, nec in terra, nec secundū terrā quærere debemus dominū, si volumus inuenire. Nō enim supra terrā quæsiuit qui stantē ad Dei dextrā vidit. Maria quærebat in terra tangere Christū & non potuit. Stephanus tetigit quia quærebat in cœlo. i. MarginaliaAmbros. in 10. cap. Luc. Wherfore, neither aboue the earth, nor vpon the earth, nor according to the earth we ought to seeke the Lorde, if we will finde him: For he did not seke him aboue the earth which did see him sitting at the right hand. And Mary sought vpon the earth to touch Christ, & could not. Steuen touched him because he sought him in heauen. S. Hierome in an epistle to Marcella proueth that þe body of Christ must nedes be cōteined in some place, for he saith: Veri Dei est vbiq̀ esse: veri hominis alicubi esse. i. MarginaliaHieron. ad Marcellani. The propertie of god is to be euery where, the propertie of mā is to be in one place. The same Hierom in an other place calleth it a foolish thing to secke for him in a narrow place, or in a corner, which is þe light of all the world: Stultū est eum paruo in loco, vel abscondito quærere, qui totius mundi est lumē. i. MarginaliaHieron. Foolishnes it is, in a small place or in a hid corner to seeke him which is the light of the whole world. Origene saith likewise: Audiēdi nō sunt qui Christū demōstrant in ædibus. i. MarginaliaOrigenes. They are not to be heard, which shew Christ in houses. The same also recordeth Beda, writing vpō these wordes of Christ: Now a litle while shal you see me. He speaketh in Christes persō. Therfore (saith he) shall you see me but a little while after my resurrection, because I wyll not styll abyde in the earth bodily, but in the manhode which I haue taken, will ascend vp to heauen. MarginaliaBeda in 17. cap. Ioan. What nedeth more wordes. Al the old fathers witnesseth þe same. You may by these soone iudge the rest. Now to returne to the matter, seing that the worde of God in many and sondry places, the Credo, and the abrigement of the fayth, seyng all the olde fathers do constantly agree in one, that the body of Christ is ascended into heauen and there remaineth at the right hande of the father, and can not bee more then in one place, MarginaliaThe Sacrament is not the reall body of Christ, and why? I doe conclude that the Sacrament is not the body of Christ: first because it is not in heauen, neither sitteth at the fathers right hand: moreouer because it is in an hundreth thousand boxes 

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'Boxes': tabernacles or pyxes used for reserving the Sacrament.

, where as Christes body filleth but one place. Furthermore if þe bread were turned into the bodye of Christ, then would it necessarely folow, that sinners and vnpenitent persons receiue the body of Christ. 
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The Protestant reply to the Catholic view regarding whether the wicked actually receive Christ's body and blood. Catholics would say they do, but to their own condemnation. Protestants would say that faith is necessary to truly receive the sacrament, and since the wicked cannot have faith, they receive merely bread. The latter stance rests upon Luther's doctrine of justification by faith alone: one cannot possess faith and be a graver sinner at the same time. Catholics responded that one could, the greatest example being the devil, who knew God and yet rejected God.

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