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1391 [1366]

Q. Mary. Disputation of Doct. Cranmer Archb. of Cant. in Oxford.

MarginaliaAn 1554. Aprill.Wherfore he is not absent, neither are we ioyned to Christ onely by a spirituall vnion, (as you suppose) but also by a corporall and carnall vnion.

Cran. I know that M. Bucer was a learned mā. But your fayth is in good case, which leaneth vpon Bucer.

Tres. I do not bring Bucer as a Patron of our fayth, but because he is a man of your sort, and yet bringeth this place of Hillary for that vnion which we haue by the sacrament, and confesseth that by it we are carnally vnited to Christ, where as you thinke that we are ioyned by it, onely through fayth and loue.

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MarginaliaChrist communicated & vnited to vs by byrth, by vnitie of the Church, by the communion by Baptisme, by fayth.Cran. I say that Christ was communicated vnto vs, not onely by fayth, but in very dede also when he was borne of the virgin. We haue fellowship with Christ, when we are vnited in the vnity of the Church, when we are made flesh of his flesh, and bones of his bones: and so we are vnited in the communion, in baptisme, and in fayth.

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Tres. I pray you, what fellowship haue we with Christ, in that he is made man? Are not the Turkes & Iewes therin ioyned with hym? For they are men as we are, and are ioyned with him in mans nature, in that he was borne of a woman: I speake now of a more nere vnitie. We are made one wyth Christ by the communion, in a perfect vnitie.

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Cran. * Marginalia* We are vnited to Christ by communiō so as we are by baptisme. We are made so, I graunt: but we are made so also by baptisme: and the vnity in baptisme is perfect.

Tres. We are not made one by baptisme in a perfect vnity, as Hillary there speaketh, but by the Communion, by whiche we are carnally made one: but not lykewise by Baptisme: wherefore you vnderstande not Hillary. You shall heare his wordes, which are these. MarginaliaObiection of Hillary.He had now declared afore the Sacrament of his perfect vnion, saying: As the liuyng father sent me, so do I also liue by the father. And he that eateth my flesh, shall also lyue thorough me. And a litle after þt he writeth thus: This truely is the cause of our lyfe, that we haue Christ dwelling by his fleshe in vs that are fleshlye, which also by him shall liue in such sort, as he liueth by his Father. Wherfore, of these wordes it is manifest, that we obtaine thys perfect vnity, by meanes of the sacrament, & that Christ by it is carnally vnited vnto vs.

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MarginaliaAunswere to the place of Hillary.Cran. Nay Hillary in that same place doth teach, that it is done by Baptisme: and that doctrine is not to be suffred in the church, which teacheth, that we are not ioined to Christ by Baptisme.

West. Repeat the Argument.

Cran. You must first make an Argument.

Tres. It is made alredy, but it shall be made agayne in this forme.

As Christ lyueth by his father, so they that eate chri-
stes flesh, lyue by the same flesh.
But Christ liueth by the father, not onely by faith and
loue, but naturally:
Ergo, we liue not through the eating of Christes flesh
by fayth and loue only, but naturally.

Cran. We liue by Christ, not onely by fayth and loue, but eternally in dede.

Tresh. Nay * Marginalia* The Papistes by this one worde [naturally] cōfound themselues. For if the naturall bodye of Christ were eaten and went naturally into our bodyes, then should it follow, that the nature of his body being immaculate, and now also immortal, our bodyes vnited in nature to hys pure and immortal body, naturally should neuer sinne nor dye. Wherfore it remayneth that the natural vniting to Christes body cometh not by the bodely eating of the Sacrament vnto our bodye, but to our soule, and so shall redounde at length vnto our bodyes. naturally. I proue it thus.

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As Christ liueth by the Father, so lyue we by his fleshe eaten of vs:

But Christ lyueth not by hys father only by fayth and loue, but naturally:

Therefore we do not lyue by eating of Christes flesh onely by faith and loue (as you suppose) but naturally.

Cran. The Minor is not true.

Tres. This is the opinion of Arrius, that Christ is vnited to his father by coniunction of mynd, and not naturally.

Cran. I say not so yet, neither do I thinke so. But I will tell you what I like not in your Minor. You say that Christ doth not liue by his father, only by faith and loue: but I say, that Christ liueth not at al by his faith.

West. Marke and consider well this worde [by fayth] lest any occasion of cauilling be geuen.

Tres. Let that word [by fayth] be omitted. Neither did I meane that Christ liueth by his father thorough fayth. Yet the strength of the argument remayneth in force. For els Hillary doth not confute the Arrians, except there be MarginaliaIf that vnion of the substaunce of flesh should be graunted vnto our bodyes, then should our bodies neuer die nor see corruption.a greater coniunction betwene vs and Christ, when he is eaten of vs then onely a spirituall coniunction. You do onely graunt a vnion. As for a carnall or naturall vnion of the substaunce of flesh, by which we are ioyned more then spiritually, you do not graūt. But our lord Iesus geue you a better mind: and shew you the light of his truth, that you may returne into the way of righteousnes.

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West. We came hether to dispute, and not to pray.

Tres. Is it not lawfull to pray for them that erre?

West. It is not lawfull yet. But procede.

MarginaliaThe same argumēt again repeated.Tres. Againe, I reason thus: As Christ liueth by hys father, after the same maner do we liue by the eating of hys fleshe.

But Christ liueth not by his Father only in vnitie of wil, but naturally:

Ergo we do not liue whē we eate the flesh of Christ. onely by fayth and vnitie of will, but naturally.

MarginaliaAunswere.Cran. This is my fayth, and it agreeth with the scripture: Christ liueth by his father naturally, and maketh vs to lyue by himself in dede: naturally, and that not only in the sacrament of the Eucharist, but also in Baptisme. For infantes, when they are baptised, do eate the fleshe of Christ.

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Weston. Answer eyther to the whole argument, or to the partes thereof. For this argument is strong and cannot be dissolued.

MarginaliaThe Archb. repeateth the argument.Cran. This is the argument:

As Christ liueth by his father, after the same maner doe we lyue by his flesh, beyng eaten of vs:

But Christ lyueth not by his father onely in vnitie of will, but naturally:

Ergo we eating his flesh, do not lyue onely by faith and loue, but naturally.

But the Maior is false: namely, that by the same maner we lyue by Christ, as he liueth by his father.

Weston. * Marginalia* Christ not after his manhoode but after his diuine nature liueth naturally by hys father, vvhich diuine nature of hys vvorketh also in his manhoode an immortalitie: So our spirite and soule receauing the naturall body of Christ in the mysteries, by fayth do receaue also the nature of his body, that is, hys purenes, iustification, and life: the operation vvherof redounding likevvise vnto our bodyes, doth make the same also capable of the same glory and immortalitie. And thus it is true, that as Christ lyueth naturally by his Father, so vvee lyue naturally by the bodye of Christ eaten in the misteries, hauinge respecte both to the manhoode of him & of vs. For as the flesh of Christ, in respect of bare fleshe, lyueth not naturally by the father, but for that it is ioyned to his diuinitie: So our flesh liueth not naturally by Christes body eaten in the Sacrament (for then euery vvicked man eatyng the Sacrament shoulde liue naturally by hym) but for that our fleshe is ioyned to the spirite and soule, vvhich truely eateth the bodye of Christ by fayth: and so onely the bodies of the faithfull doe liue by eating the body of Christ naturally, in participating the naturall properties of the bodye of Christ. Hillary sayth: after the same maner, vpon these wordes: he that eateth my flesh, shall lyue by mee: Ergo, Christ liueth by his father, and as hee liueth by his father, after the same maner we shall lyue by his flesh. Here you see, that Hillary saith, after the same maner.

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Cran. After the same maner, doth not signifie lyke in all thinges: but in deede & eternally: for so doe we liue by Christ, and Christ. lyueth by his father. For in other respects Christ liueth otherwise by his Father, thē we liue by Christ

West. He liueth by his father naturally & eternally:

Ergo we liue by Christ naturally and eternally.

Cran. We do not liue naturally, but by grace, if you take naturally for the maner of nature. As Christ hath eternall lyfe of his father, so haue we of hym.

West. I sticke to this word naturally.

MarginaliaNaturall expounded.Cran. I meane it touching the truth of nature. For Christ lyueth otherwyse by hys father, then we lyue by Christ.

West. Hillary in the. 8. booke De Trinitate, denieth it when he sayeth: he liueth therfore by his father: and as he lyueth by hys father, after the same maner we shall lyue by hys fleshe.

Cran. We shall lyue after the same maner, as concerning the nature of the flesh of Christ: for as he hath of his father the nature of eternitie, so shal we haue of hym.

West. Aunswere vnto the partes of the Argument.

MarginaliaThe Argument the third tyme repeated.As Christ lyueth by his father, after the same maner shall we lyue by his flesh:

But Christ doth not lyue by his father onely in vnitie of wyll, but naturally:

Ergo, we eatyng his flesh, do not lyue only by fayth & loue, but naturally.

Cran. I graunt (as I said) we lyue by Christ naturally: but I neuer heard that Christ liueth with his Father in vnity of wyll.

West. Because it seemeth a maruaile vnto you, heare what Hillary sayth: These thinges are recited of vs to this ende: because the heretickes fayning an vnitie of wyll onely betwene the father and the sonne, did vse the example of our vnity with God: as though that we being vnited to the son, and by the sonne to the father onely by obedience and wyll of religion, had no proprietie of the naturall communion by the sacrament of the body and bloud.

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But answer to the argument. Christ lyueth by his father naturally and eternally: therfore do we lyue by Christ naturally and eternally.

Cran. Cyrill and Hillary do say, that Christ is vnited to vs, not onely by wyll, but also by nature: hee doth communicate 

Commentary  *  Close

The entire passage by Cranmer: 'He doth communicate to us his own nature ... but that we should be also partakers of the nature of everlasting life' is not in the Rerum. It was introduced in the 1563 edition with a note saying 'Ex exempl. manu Cranmeri descripto' (1563, p. 950; 1570, p. 1602; 1576, pp. 1366-67; 1583, p. 1437). Clearly these passages were inserted into the account of the debate from a written statement by Cranmer which Foxe obtained between 1559 and 1563. It is possible that this was the copy of Cranmer's account which Grindal had obtained. It is also possible, however, that this was a statement Cranmer submitted to Weston, and was taken by Foxe from the Convocation records which he had asked Grindal to obtain for him.

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to vs hys owne nature, and so is Christ made one with vs carnally and corporally, because he tooke our nature of the virgin Mary.

MarginaliaEx exemplari manu Cranmeri descripto.And Hilary doth not only say that Christ is naturally in vs, but þt we also are naturally in him

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