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1392 [1367]

Q. Mary. Disputation of Doct. Cranmer Archb. of Cant. in Oxforde.

Marginalia1554. Aprill.and in the Father: that is, that we are partakers of their nature, which is eternitie or euerlastingnes. For as the word receiuyng our nature, did ioyne it vnto hymselfe in vnity of person, and did communicate vnto that our nature the nature of hys eternitie, MarginaliaNaturally expounded, that is our bodies to participate the nature & properties of Christes holy and immortall body.that lyke as he beyng the euerlasting worde of the father, had euerlasting lyfe of þe father: euen so he gaue the same nature to his flesh: Likewyse also did he communicate with vs the same nature of eternitie, which he and the father haue, and that we should be one with them, not onely in will and loue, but that we should be also partakers of the nature of euerlasting lyfe.

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Weston. Hilary where he sayth: Christ communicated to vs hys nature, meaneth that, not by his natiuitie, but by the sacrament.

Cranmer. He hath communicated to vs his fleshe by his natiuitie.

Weston. We haue communicated to him * Marginalia* Then had Christ a sinfull flesh. our flesh when he was borne.

Cran. Nay, he communicated to vs his flesh when he was borne, and that I will shew you out of Cyril vppon this place: Et homo factus est.

West. Ergo, Christ being borne, gaue vs his flesh.

Cran. In his natiuitie he made vs * Marginalia* That is, made vs partakers of the properties, life, innocencie, and resurrection of his body. pertakers of his flesh.

West. Write Sirs. 

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Weston's words 'write sirs' (1563, p. 950; 1570, p. 1602; 1576, p. 1367; 1583, p. 1437) was a command to the notaries which at least one of them transcribed. Its appearance in the Rerum, as the imperative 'scribite', is another sign that the Rerum version of the disputation came from a notary's account.

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Cran. Yea, write.

MarginaliaD. Chadsey agayne disputeth. Ched. This place of Hilary is so darke, that you were cōpelled to falsifie it in your booke, because you could not draw it to confirme your purpose.

MarginaliaHillar. 8. De Trinitate. If Christ haue taken verely the flesh of our body, & the man that was verely borne of the virgin Mary is Christ, and also we receaue vnder the true mystery the flesh of his body, by meanes wherof we shall be one (for the father is in Christ, and Christ in vs) how shall that be called the vnity of wyll, when the naturall property brought to passe by the Sacrament, is the Sacrament of vnity? we must not speake in the sence of man or of the worlde in matters concernyng God: neither must we peruersly wrast any straunge or wicked sence out of the wholesome meanyng of the holy Scripture, through impudent and violent contention. Let vs read those thynges that are written, and let vs vnderstande those thyngs that we read, and then we shall performe the duety of perfect fayth. For as touching that naturall & true beyng of Christ in vs, except we learne of hym, we speake folishly and vngodly that thing that we do speake. For he sayth: My flesh is meat in dede, and my bloud is drynke in deede. He that eateth my flesh & drinketh my bloud, abydeth in me and I in hym. As touching the veritie of his flesh and bloud, there is left no place of doubt: for now, both by the testimony of the Lord, and also by our fayth, it is verilye flesh, and verily bloud.

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MarginaliaThus farre was their talke in English.Here you haue falsified Hillary: for you haue set vero sub mysterio, for verè sub mysterio, we receiue truly vnder a mystery. Hillary thrise reporteth verè sub mysterio, and you interprete it twise verè sub Mysterio, but the third tyme you haue vero for verè. MarginaliaSeing M. Cranmer had twyse verè and but once vero, they had no cause to be greued, but that they were disposed to finde a knot in a rushe.

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Cran. Assuredly, I am not gilty of any deceite herein. It may be that þe copy which I folowed, had Sub vero mysterio. i. vnder a true mystery: although touchyng the sence it differeth litle. God I call to witnes, I haue alway hated falsifiyng, and if you had leysure and lust to heare false citations, I could recite vnto you 6. C.

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West. Here shalbe shewed you two copies of Hilary, the one printed at Basill, the other at Paris.

Cran. I suppose that D. Smithes bookes hath vero.

West. Here is Doctour Smith: let hym aunswere for hymselfe.

M. Smith, M. Doctor: what say you for your selfe? speake if you know it.

☞ Here Doctour Smith, eyther for the truth in hys booke alledged, or els astonied with Doctor Westons hasty callyng, stayd to answer. For he only put of his cappe, and kept silence.

West. But your owne booke printed by Wolfe your owne printer, hath vero.

Cran. That booke is taken from me, which easily might haue ended this controuersie. I am sure the booke of Decrees hath vero.

MarginaliaHere Doct. Cole beginneth to carpe. Cole. Now you admitte the booke of Decrees, when it maketh for you.

Cran. Touchyng the sence of the matter, there is litle difference. The chaunge of one letter for an other is but a small matter.

West. No is? Pastor (as you know) signifieth a Bishop, and Pistor signifieth a Baker. But Pastor shalbe Pistor, a Bishop shalbe a Baker by this your chaunge of one letter, if verè and vero do nothing chaunge the sence.

Cran. Let it be so that in Pistor and Pastor one letter maketh some difference: Yet let Pistor be eyther a Baker or maker of bread, ye see here the chaunge of a letter, and yet no great difference to be in the sence.  

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A rejoinder by Cranmer to a sally by Weston does not appear in the 1563 edition (See textual variant 52). It is not in the Rerum either and it may have been invented by Foxe to allow Cranmer the last word.

MarginaliaD. Yonge commeth in with his Socraticall interrogations. Young. This Disputation is taken in hande, that the truth might appeare. I perceyue I must go an other way to worke then I had thought. It is a common saying: against hym that denyeth principles we must not dispute. Therfore that we may agree of the principles, I demaund whether there be any other body of Christ then hys instrumentall body.

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Cran. There is no naturall body of Christ, but his organicall body.

Yong, Agayne I demaund, whether sence and reason ought to geue place to fayth.

Cran. They ought.

Yong. Thirdly, whether Christ be true in all his wordes?

Cran. Yea, he is most true, and truth it selfe.

Yong. Fourthly, whether Christ at his supper mynded to do that which he spake or no?

Cran. Dicendo dixit, non fecit dicendo: sed fecit Discipulis Sacramentum. That is: In saying he spake, but in saying he made not, but made the sacrament to his disciples.

MarginaliaD. Yonges sophisticall interrogatories. Yong. Aunswere accordyng to the truth: whether did Christ that as God and man, which he spake, when he sayd: This is my body.

Cran. This is a Sophistical cauillation: go plainly to work. There is some deceit in these questiōs. You seke subtelnes: leaue your crafty fetches.

Yong. I demaund whether Christ by these wordes wrought any thing or no?

Cran. He did institute the sacrament.

Yong. But answer: whether did he worke any thing?

Cran. He did worke in instituting the sacrament.

Yong. Now I haue you: for MarginaliaThys Syllogisme speaking of a figure, hath no perfect forme nor figure.before you sayd it was a figuratiue speach.

But a figure worketh nothyng:

Ergo it is not a figuratiue speach. A lyer ought to haue a good memory.

Cran. I vnderstode your Sophistry before. You by workyng vnderstand conuertyng into the body of Christ: but Christ wrought the Sacrament, not in conuertyng, but in institutyng.

Young. Woe be to them that make Christ a deceyuer. Dyd he worke any other thyng then he spake, or the self same thyng?

Cran. He wrought the sacrament, and by these wordes he signified the effect.

Fes- Yong. A figuratiue speach is no workyng thing.
ti- But the speach of Christ is workyng:
no. Ergo, it is not figuratiue.

Cran. It worketh by institutyng, not by conuerting.

Yong. The thing signified in the sacrament, is it not in that sacrament?

Cran. It is. For the thing is ministred in a signe. He followeth the letter that taketh the thyng for the signe. MarginaliaAunswere to D. Yonge by Saint Austen. Augustine separateth the Sacrament from the thyng. The Sacrament (sayth he) is one, and the thyng of the Sacrament an other.

Weston. Sticke to this Argument.

It is a figuratiue speach.

Ergo, it worketh nothing.

Yong. But the speach of Christ is a working thing:

Ergo, it is not figuratiue.

Cran. O how many craftes are in this Argument? they are mere fallacies: I sayd not that the wordes of Christ do worke, but Christ hymselfe: and he worketh by a figuratiue speach.

West. If a figure worke, it maketh of bread the bodye of Christ.

Cran. A figuratiue speach worketh not.

West. A figuratiue speach by your own confession, worketh nothyng.

But the speach of Christ in the supper (as you graunt) wrought somewhat:

Ergo, the speach of Christ in the Supper was not figuratiue.

Cran. I answer: these are mere sophismes: MarginaliaThe figuratiue speach worketh not, but Christ by the figuratiue speach worketh the sacrament.the speach doth not worke, but Christ by the speach doth worke the sacrament.

I loke for scriptures at your handes: for they are the foundation of disputations.

Yong. Are not these wordes of scripture: This is my bodye? The word of Christ is of strength: and by the lords words the heauens were made. He sayd: This is my body. Ergo, he made it.

Cranmer. He made the Sacrament: and I deny your Argument.

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