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1417 [1392]

Queene Mary. Harpesfield disputeth for his forme. The Archb. opposeth.

MarginaliaAn. 1554. Aprill.Christ and a figure can not be, but of a thyng that is, or hath bene extant.

To the texte of Augustine: MarginaliaAunswere to August. the Churche hath neuer taught the contrarye. There is an outwarde thing in the sacrament, which sometimes hath sundrye names. For it maye be called a figure in this declaration: That Bodye which is in the sacrament, is a figure of Christ dwelling in heauen.

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To the third: MarginaliaAnswere to August De doctrina Christiana.That which is brought by Augustine for example, about the vnderstanding of the scriptures, is thus to be vnderstanded, as tending to a generall manner of eating: so, Manducare carnem, et bibere sanguinem. i. To eate the fleshe, and drinke the bloud, maye be a figuratiue speach to exclude Anthropophagiam. i. The eating of mans fleshe, the which is, when we eate mans flesh cut into morsels, as we eate common meate: so as we neither haue not eate Christ in the sacrament.

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West. I vnderstand your short & learned answeare, which doth sufficiently content me. MarginaliaThe 2. question.But nowe to the second question, which is of transubstantiation.

The scripture calleth it bread:

Ergo, it is bread.

Harps. In the name of bread all is signified which we doo eate.

West. MarginaliaTheodoretus Dial. 1.Theodoretus an auncient writer, in his first Dialogue, saith: that Christ chaunged not the nature, but called it his body.

Harps. MarginaliaA singlesole aunswere to Theodoretus.He doth there speake de Symbolo, which is Externa species sacramenti. i. The outward forme of the sacrament. He meaneth that, that doth tary in his own nature. Moreouer, as it was reported, he brought for his answere Augustinum in sententijs Prosperi.

West. MarginaliaTheodoretus Dial. 2.Theoderete also in his seconde Dialogue of these kindes of bread and wyne saith: Nec naturam egrediuntur, manent etiam in sua substantia. i. They go not out of their owne nature, but they tarye in their owne substaunce.

Harps. They are vnderstanded to be of the same substāce wherin they are * Marginalia* And how are they turned if they remain in Priori substantia. turned.

West. But what say you by this? Manent in priori substantia. They remain in their former substance.

Harps. Symbola manent: The outward signes do tary.

West. But what is meant here by this word, symbolū? MarginaliaSymbolum quid.

Harps. The outward fourme or shape onely of the nature.

West. Then you can not cal them a substance.

Harps. Yes sir, euery thing hath a certaine substaunce in his kind.

West. That is true: but accidentes are not substances in their kind.

Harps. Sunt quid in suo genere. Of this they contended much.

West. MarginaliaChrisost. ad Cæsarium Monachum.Chrysostome ad Cæsarium Monachum, saith: Sicut antequā consecratur, panis est: sic postquā consecratur, liberatus est ab appellatione panis, donatusque est appellatione corporis dominici, cum natura remanet: that is, Like as before it is consecrated, it is bread: so after it is consecrated, it is deliuered from the name of bread, and is endued with the name of the Lordes body, where as the nature doth remaine.

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Harps. Where reade you this place, I pray you?

West. MarginaliaD. Weston compyleth hys argumentes out of Pet. Martyrs story.Here in Peter Martyr I finde it: I haue his boke in my hand.

Harps. The author shall be of more credite, before that I make so much of hym, as to frame an answeare vnto it.

West. In deede I knowe not well where he findeth it. But MarginaliaGelasius.Gelasius saith, that the nature of bread and wyne do tarrye.

Harps. What is that Gelasius?

West. A Bishop of Rome.

Harps. Then he allowed the masse.

West. Yea and oftentymes sayd it: and Purgatory he also allowed, and so prayer for the dead, reliques, and inuocatiō to saintes.

Harps. Belike then he meant nothing agaynst transubstantiation.

West. It doth appeare so in deede. But MarginaliaOrigenes in Math. cap. 15.Origene vpon Math. the. 15. Chapter. saith: that the material bread dooth tarrye, and is conueyed into the Priuie, and is eaten of wormes.

Harps. Tushe, tuseh, this place apperteineth vnto holy bread.

West. What, doth it apperteine to holy breade?

Harps. Yea vnto holy bread.

West. By what meanes can you shew how thys myraculous worke bringeth Christ into the sacrament.

Harps. By the scriptures I proue that, which saith: Hoc est corpus meum: This is my body.

West. It dooth reioyce all vs not a litle, that you haue so wel mainteyned the sound doctrine of the sacrament of the Altar, wherin you haue faithfully cleaued to the Catholike Church, as an only staye of our religion: by the which meanes you haue proued your selfe meete to be authorised further towardes the practising of the scripture.

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And here I doo openly witnes, that I doo throughly consent wyth you, and haue for disputations sake onely, brought these argumentes against you, whiche you haue right learnedly satisifed: and nowe all thinges being done, after our forme and maner, we wyl ende this disputation, saying: In oppositum est sacra theologia. In oppositum est. &c.

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¶ Thus ye haue heard in these foresaid disputations, about the holy supper of the Lord, the reasons & argumēts of the Doctors, the answeares and resolutions of the Bishops, and the triumph of the Prolocutor, triumphing before the victory, with Vicit veritas, who rather in my mynde shoulde haue exclaimed: vicit potestas: As it happeneth alwayes, Vbi pars maior vincit meliorem. For els if potestas had not helped the Prolocutor more then veritas, there had bene a small victoria. But so it is where iudgementes be parciall, and parties be addicted, there all thinges turne to victorie, though it be neuer so meane and simple, as in this disputation might wel appeare.

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For first of the Opponents part, neither was there almost any argument in true moode and figure rightly framed: neither could the answearers be permitted to say for them selues: and if they answered any thing, it was condemned before they began to speake. Againe such disturbance and confusion, more like a conspiration then any disputation, without al forme and order, was in the schooles during the time of their answering, that neither could the answearers haue place to vtter their myndes, neither would the Opponents be satisfied wyth any reason. Concernyng the which disturbance of that misruled disputation, you shall heare what M. Ridley hym selfe reporteth by his owe description, in maner as foloweth.

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¶ The reporte and narration of M. Ridley concerning the misordered disputation had against hym and his felow prisoners at Oxford. 
Commentary  *  Close
Block 23: Letters and documents pertaining to the disputation

In the 1570 edition, rather than following the disputations with a digest of the arguments, Foxe moved Ridley's letter protesting about the conduct of the disputations from the beginning of Ridley's account of his disputation to the end of Foxe's account of all the disputations (textual transposition 17).

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In the Rerum and the 1563 edition, Foxe had printed all the material after Ridley's narrative of his disputation in the order in which it occurred in the manuscripts: first Ridley's prefatory letter (Rerum, pp. 659-61; 1563, pp. 956-58), followed by the disputation itself (Rerum, p. 661-95; 1563, p. 957-77), further followed by Ridley's letter to Weston (Rerum, p 695; 1563, p. 977) and a concluding letter addressed to the reader (Rerum, p. 696; 1563, p. 978).

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In later editions, Foxe transposed the sections of Ridley's account. Phrases were appended to Ridley's letter of protest in the 1570 edition which had not appeared in the Rerum or the 1563 edition (or in LM, pp. 76-78, where it was also printed; see textual variant 69). By this time, Foxe had several different manuscript copies of this letter - Harley 422, fol. 53r-v; Lansdowne 389, fols. 117v-118v and ECL 262, fols. 16r-17v - and it is possible that this new conclusions appears in one of these. Alternatively, it might have been invented by Foxe. Conversely, closing passages in Ridley's prefatory letter, which had served as a bridge between the letter and the account of his disputation, were omitted (see textual variant 70).

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Commentary on the Glosses  *  Close
Documents/letters of Ridley and Cranmer

This is a section consisting of letters written by Cranmer and Ridley and connecting text around the time of their separation and condemnation. Many of the glosses follow the texts in objecting to the conduct of the proceedings: haste, unfairness, unkept promises are all noted ('B. Ridleyes report of the misorder of this disputation', 'D. Ridley could not be suffered to read forth his protestation', 'Papistes haue small conscience in performing promises', 'The Archb. not suffered to aunswere fully to any argument' and 'Hast made in condemning the Archb. and hys fellowes'). The ill behaviour of the papists is also alluded to ('Tauntes and reuilinges vsed in this disputation'). Foxe's predilection for binaries is also in evidence: The gloss 'No veritie but glory sought for in this disputation' picks up on Ridley's contrast between the supposed object of the disputation (verity) and its actual one (glory), while the gloss reporting the condemnation of the three martyrs ('D. Cranmer Bishop Ridley and M. Latimer condemned') is immediately followed by one claiming that 'Weston geueth sentence against himselfe', thus showing the contrast between true and apparent guilt. Many of the glosses are factual, which is unsurprising given the transition from disputation to narrative that this passage marks (e.g. 'The Archb. and his fellow prisoners separated', 'Disputation in Cambridge intended'). For variations and errors between editions, see the gloss 'The 3. prisoners at Oxford called before the Commissioners. Aprill. 20.' (1570 more clearly positioned than later), 'Aprill. 13' (a mistake in all editions), and 'Disputation in Cambridge intēded, wherof read hereafter pag. 1639' (only 1570 bothers to give a reference).

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MarginaliaBysh. Ridleys report of the misorder of thys disputation.I Neuer yet sithence I was borne saw, or heard any thing done or handled more vainlye or tumultuouslye, then the disputation which was with mee in the Schooles at Oxford. Yea verely I could neuer haue thoughte that it had been possible to haue founde amongest men recounted to be of knowledge and learning in thys Realme, any so brasen faced and shamelesse, so disorderlye and vainlye, to behaue them selues, more like to Stageplayers in Enterludes, to set forth a Pageant, then to be graue Diuines in Scholes to dispute, The Sorbonical clamoures (which at Paris I haue seene in tyme past when Popery most raigned) might be worthely thought (in cōparison of this thrasonycal ostētation) to haue had muche modestie. And no greate maruaile, seeing they which should haue beene Moderatoures, and Ouerseers of others, and which shoulde haue geeuen good ensample in wordes and grauitie,: they themselues aboue all other gaue worst ensample, and dyd (as it were) blow the trompe to the rest, to raile, rore, rage, and crye out. By reason wherof (good Christē reader) manifestly it may appeare, that they neuer sought for any truth or verity, but only for the glory of the world and their owne braging victory. MarginaliaNot veritie but glory sought for in thys disputation. But least by the innumerable raylinges and reprochfull tauntes, wherwith I was bayted on euery side, our cause, yea rather Gods cause and his churches, should be euil spoken of, & sclaundered to the world through false reportes, and vntrue ensaumples geuen out of our disputation, and so þe veritie might sustayn some dammage, I thought it no les then my duety to write mine aunsweres: to the intent that who so euer is desirous to know the truth thereof, may by this perceiue, aswell those thinges which were chiefly obiected, as summarely that which was answered of me vnto euery of them. How be it (good Reader), I confesse this to be most true, that it is vnpossible to set forth either all that was (God knoweth) tumultuously and confusedly obiected of their partes being so many, speaking many times altogether so thick that one could not wel heare an other, either all that was aunswered on my behalfe, to them so sondry & diuers Opponentes.

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MarginaliaTauntes and reuilinges vsed in thys disputation.Moreouer, a great parte of the tyme appoynted for the disputations, was vainely consumed in opprobrious checkes and reuilyng tauntes, with hissinges and clapping of handes, and that in the Englishe tongue, to procure the peoples fauour withal. All whiche thinges, when I with greate griefe of harte dyd beholde, protestyng openly, that

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