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1473 [1449]

Queene Mary. Disputation of D. Ridley Bishop of London at Oxford.

and yet ascending, he carryed the same with him to. By which words we make this reason.

Christ left his flesh to his Disciples, and yet for all that he tooke the same vp with him:

Ergo, he is present heere with vs.

Heere Doctour Weston crying to the people, sayd vnto them: MarginaliaD. Weston speaking to the audiēce in English.Maister Doctour aunswereth it after this fashion:

He caried his flesh into heauen, and he left here the communion of his flesh behinde. Assuredly the aunswere is to vnlearned.

Rid. I am glad you speake in Englishe. Surely I wishe that all the whole world might vnderstand your reasons and my aunsweres. Reliquit nobis carnem suam. i. He left vs his flesh. This you vnderstande of his flesh, and I vnderstand the same of grace. He caried his fleshe into heauen, and left behind the communion of his flesh vnto vs.

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West. Ye Iudges, MarginaliaBut where were these Iudges in K. Edwardes tyme.what thinke ye of this aunswere.

Iudges. It is ridiculous and a very fond aunswere. 

Commentary  *  Close

The remark of one of the judges to one of Ridley's answers was changed from 'It is an answere to be laughed at, and a very fond aunswere' (1563, p. 968) to 'It is ridiculous and a very fond aunsweare' (1570, p. 1615; 1576, p. 1378; 1583, p. 1449). Possibly this is a variant version of what the judge said; possibly Foxe reworded this to make the narrative more dignified.

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Rid. Well, I take your words paciētly for Christes cause.

West. Weston heere citeth a place: Spargimur sanguine Christi: We are sprinkled with the bloud of Christ.

MarginaliaHow ye are sprinckled with Christes bloud.Rid. M. Doctor, it is the same bloud, but yet spiritually receiued. And in deede all the Prophetes were sprinkled with þe same bloud, but yet spiritually I say, and by grace. And whatsoeuer they be that are not sprinckled with thys bloud, they can not be partakers of þe euerlasting saluatiō.

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West. Marginalia* This he repeated in Englishe to the people also.* Here I bring Bernard vnto you againe. Euen from the West vnto the East, from the North vnto the South, there is one and the selfesame Christ in many and diuers places.

MarginaliaAunswere to Bernard.Rid. The aunswere is soone made, that one Christe is here and in diuers places. For God according to hys Maiestie, and according to his prouidence, as S. Austen sayeth, is euery where with the godly, according to his indiuisible and vnspeakeable grace. MarginaliaThe Papistss make Christ to haue a monsterous body.Or else, if we should vnderstande Bernard according to the corporall presence, how monstrous or huge, & giantlike a body would you then make Christes body to be, which should reach euen from North to South, from West to East.

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West. Nay, nay, you make a monstrous aunswer and vnlearned.

MarginaliaHere they returne agayne to Latin.Ward. Before I come in with those reasons which I had purposed to bring against you, I am minded to come again to M. Doctours argument, by which you being brought into the briers, seemed to doubt of Christes presence on the earth. To þe proofe of which matter I will bring nothyng else, then that which was agreed vpon in the Catechisme of the Synode of London, MarginaliaB. Ridley falsly charged to set forth the Catechisme.set out not long ago by you.

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Rid. Syr, I geue you to witte, before you goe any farther, that I did set out no Catechisme.

MarginaliaD. Weston in K. Edwards dayes subscribed.West. Yes, you made me subscribe to it when you were a Byshop in your ruffe.

Rid. I compelled no man to subscribe.

Warde. Yes by roode, you are the very author of that heresie.

Rid. I put foorth no Catechisme.

Cole. Did you neuer consent to the setting out of those things, which you allowed?

Rid. I graunt that I sawe the booke. But I deny that I wrote it. I perused it after it was made, and I noted many things for it. So I consented to the booke: I was not the author of it. MarginaliaOf this Catechisme read before pag. 1357. 

Cattley Pratt  *  Close
Cattley/Pratt, VI, Appendix, ref. page 487, note 6

The title of the little volume alluded to is, "Catechismus brevis, Christianæ disciplinæ summam continens, omnibus Ludimagistris auth. Regiâ commendatus: huic Catechismo adjuncti sunt Articuli de quibus in ultima Synodo Londinensi A. D. 1552, &c. &c. 8vo. Lond. 1553." This Catechism is generally considered to be the production of Poynet, bishop of Winchester. Strype, however, says, "It was certainly writ by Alexander Noel, as I find by comparing Noel's Catechism and this together." See the matter again referred to in Cranmer's Disputation at Oxford, p. 468 of this volume, and in Ridley's Disputation, p. 487. The following passage of a letter from Sir John Cheke to Bullinger, dated Greenwich, June 7th, 1553 (Zurich Letters, Parker Soc. 1846, No. 71), decides the point of the authorship: "Besides this, he [Edward VI.] has lately recommended to the schools by his authority the Catechism of John Bishop of Winchester, and has published the Articles of the Synod of London." Weston evidently alludes to the latter part of the title-page, respecting the Articles. This book was printed in Latin by Wolfe, and in English by Day, at the same time. Copies "are very rare. They could only be circulated from May 20th to July 6th, of 1553. During the reign of Mary all that fell into the hands of the various commissioners, visitors, and bishops, were burnt. Beloe, in his Anecdotes of Literature, mentions this work (vol. iii. 22), and says of it, ' it is a very rare little book, concerning which Heylin very truly says, that it is so hard to come by, that scarce one scholar in five hundred hath ever heard of it, and hardly one of a thousand has ever seen it.'" (See more in Dr. Lamb's Historical Account of the Thirty-nine Articles, p. 6, Cambridge, 1829.) There are copies of it in the Public Library at Cambridge, and elsewhere; and the Parker Society has reprinted it among the "Documents of Edward VI." Dr. Lamb thinks that the publication of neither part can be said to have had the sanction of Convocation, strictly speaking. Dr. Cardwell ("Acta Synodalia") disputes Dr. Lamb's view, and thinks that the Articles had.

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Iudges. MarginaliaThe Iudges * geue an vntrue verdite: for D. Cranmer meaning by the Counsell, spake no word of Ridley.* The Catechisme is so set foorth, as though the whole conuocation house had agreed to it. Cranmer sayd yesterday that you made it.

Rid. I thinke surely that he would not say so.

Ward. The Catechisme hath this clause: Si visibiliter & in terra, &c. i. If visibly on the earth, &c.

Rid. I aunswere that those articles were set out, I both witting and consenting to them. Myne owne hand will testifie the same, and M. Cranmer put hys hand to them likewise, and gaue them to other afterward. Now, as for the place which you alledge out of it, that may easely be expounded, and without any inconuenience.

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Ward. Christ is the power and vertue of his Father.

Ergo, he was not of so little strength, that he coulde not bring to passe whatsoeuer he would himselfe. MarginaliaA possibili ad esse non valet cousequentia.

Rid. I graunt.

Ward. Christ was the wisedome of the father.

Ergo, that he spake, he spake wisely, and so as euery man might vnderstand: neither was it hys mynde to speake one thing in steede of another.

Rid. All this I graunt.

MarginaliaArgument of the wisedome & truth of Christ.Ward. Christ was likewise the very truth: Ergo, he made and perfourmed in deede, that which he intended to make. And likely it is, that he doth neither deceiue, nor coulde be deceiued, nor yet would go about to deceiue other.

West. Hilarius in Psalmum 118. hath these words. MarginaliaHillar. in Psal. 118.Vera omnia sunt, & neque ociosè, neque inutiliter constituta dei verba, sed

extra omnem ambiguitatem superfluæ inanitatis, ignita, & ignita vehementer, ne quid illic esse quod non perfectum ac proprium sit, existimetur. That is: All Gods wordes or sayings are true, and neither idlely placed, nor vnprofitably, but fiery, and wonderfull 

Commentary  *  Close

Foxe added the word 'wonderful' to Hilary's commentary on Psalm 118 (cf. 1563, p. 969 with 1570, p. 1616; 1576, p. 1378; 1583, p. 1449).

fiery without all doubtfulnes of superfluous vanitie, that ther may be nothing thought to be there, which is not absolute and proper.

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Ward. He is the truth of the father: Ergo, he can neyther deceiue, nor yet be deceyued, especially, I meane, when he spake at his latter end, and his testament.

MarginaliaAunswere to Master Wardes argument.Rid. Christ is the very truth of the father: and I perceyue well to what scope you driue your reason. This is but a farre fet compasse of words. If that these words of Christ: This is my body, which you meane, be rightly vnderstoode, they are most true.

Ward. He tooke, he brake, he gaue, &c. what tooke he?

Ridley. Bread, his body.

Ward. What brake he?

Ridley. Bread.

Ward. What gaue he?

Ridley. Bread.

Ward. Gaue he bread made of wheate, & materiall bread?

Rid. I know not whether he gaue bread of wheate: but he gaue true and materiall bread.

Ward. I will proue the contrary by Scriptures.

He deliuered to them that which he bad them take.

But he bad not them take materiall bread, but his owne body.

Ergo, he gaue not materiall bread, but his owne body. MarginaliaThis argument is not formall in the 2. figure.

MarginaliaAunswere.Rid. I deny the Minor. For he bad them take his body Sacramentally in materiall bread: and after that sort it was both bread, which he bad them take, because the substaunce was bread, and it was also his body, because it was the Sacrament of his body, for the sanctifying and the comming to of the holy Ghost, which is alwayes assistent to those mysteries which were instituted of Christ, and lawfully administred.

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Harps. What is he that so sayeth: By the comming vnto of the holy spirite?

Rid. I haue Theophilact for mine author for this maner of speaking. And heere I bring him, that ye may vnderstand that phrase not to be mine, vpon Mathew. 26. Furthermore, the said Theophilact writing vppon these wordes: This is my body, sheweth, that the body of the Lord is bread, which is sanctifyed on the aultar. MarginaliaTheophilact. in Math. 26.

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Ogle. That place of Theophilact maketh openly agaynst you. For he sayth in that place, that Christ sayd not: This is a figure of my body, but my body. For sayeth he, by an vnspeakeable operation it is transformed, although it seeme to vs to be bread.

MarginaliaThe words of Theophil. (he sayd not this is a figure of my body) aunswered.Rid. It is not a figure, that is to say non tantum est figura. i. it is not only a figure of his body.

West. Where haue you that word [tantum] onely?

Rid. It is not in that place, but he hath it in an other & Augustine doth so speake many times, & other Doctours mo.

West. Heere Weston repeating the words of Theophilact in English, sayd: He sayth it is not a figure, and you say it is a figure.

And the same Theophilact sayth moreouer: that the cōuersiō or turning of the bread is made into the Lords flesh.

Marginalia* This argument is without perfect mode and forme, hauing the Minor negatiue in the 2. figure.* That which Christ gaue, we do geue.

But that which he gaue was not a figure of his body, but his body:

Ergo, we geue no figure, but his body.

As concerning the authoritie of Theophilactus, what hee thought and might haue spoken of that Author, D. Ridley dyd not then speake, nor could conueniently (as he himselfe afterward declared, reporting and writing with his owne hande the disputations in the prison) because of the vproares and clamours which were so great, and he of so many called vpon, that he could not aunswere as he would, and what he thought touching the authoritie of Theophilactus, but aunswered simply to that, whych was brought out of that author, on this sort.

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MarginaliaConuersion after what sorte in the Sacrament.I graunt (quoth he) the bread to be conuerted and turned into the flesh of Christ, but not by transubstantiation, but by a Sacramentall conuersion or turning. It is transformed saith Theophilactus, in the same place, by a mysticall benediction, and by the accession or comming of the holy Ghost vnto the flesh of Christ. He sayeth not: by expulsion or driuing away the substance of bread, and by substituting or putting in his place the corporall substaunce of Christes flesh. And where he sayth: It is not a figure of the body: we shoulde vnderstande that saying, as he himselfe doth elsewhere adde onely, that is: it is no naked or bare figure only. For Christ is present in his mysteries, neither at any time (as Cyprian sayeth) doth the diuine Maiestie absent himselfe from the diuine mysteries.

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West. You put in onely, and that is one lye. And I tell you

farther,
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