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1640 [1602]

Quene Mary. Disputation of Doct. Cranmer Archbishop of Cant. at Oxforde.

MarginaliaAn. 1554. Aprill.
Ex exemplari manu Cranmeri descripto.
Cran. Cyrill and Hillary do say, that Christ is vnited to vs, not onely by wyll, but also by nature: hee doth communicate 

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The entire passage by Cranmer: 'He doth communicate to us his own nature ... but that we should be also partakers of the nature of everlasting life' is not in the Rerum. It was introduced in the 1563 edition with a note saying 'Ex exempl. manu Cranmeri descripto' (1563, p. 950; 1570, p. 1602; 1576, pp. 1366-67; 1583, p. 1437). Clearly these passages were inserted into the account of the debate from a written statement by Cranmer which Foxe obtained between 1559 and 1563. It is possible that this was the copy of Cranmer's account which Grindal had obtained. It is also possible, however, that this was a statement Cranmer submitted to Weston, and was taken by Foxe from the Convocation records which he had asked Grindal to obtain for him.

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to vs his own nature, and so is Christ made one wyth vs carnally and corporally, because he tooke our nature of the virgin Mary. And Hilary doth not onely say that Christ is naturally in vs, but that we also are naturally in him, and in the Father: that is, that we are partakers of their nature, which is eternitie or euerlastingnes. For as the worde receiuing our nature, did ioyne it vnto him selfe in vnitye of person, and did communicate vnto that our nature the nature of his eternitie, MarginaliaNaturally expounded, that is, our bodyes to participate the nature and properties of Christes holy and immortall body.that like as hee being the euerlasting word of the father, had euerlasting lyfe of the father: euen so he gaue the same nature to his flesh: Likewise also did he communicate with vs the same nature of eternity, which he & the father haue, and that we should be one with them, not onely in wyl & loue, but that we should be also partakers of þe nature of euerlasting life.

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West. Hilary where he sayth: Christ communicated to vs hys nature, meaneth that, not by his natiuitie, but by the sacrament.

Cran. He hath communicated to vs his flesh by hys natiuitie.

West. We haue communicated to him * Marginalia* Then had Christ a sinfull flesh. our flesh whē he was borne.

Cran. Nay, he communicated to vs his flesh when he was borne, and that I wyl shew you out of Cyril vpon this place: Et homo factus est.

West. Ergo Christ being borne, gaue vs his flesh.

Cran. In his natiuitie he made vs * Marginalia* That is, made vs partakers of the properties, life, innocencie, and resurrection of hys body. partakers of his flesh.

West. Wryte Syrs. 

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Weston's words 'write sirs' (1563, p. 950; 1570, p. 1602; 1576, p. 1367; 1583, p. 1437) was a command to the notaries which at least one of them transcribed. Its appearance in the Rerum, as the imperative 'scribite', is another sign that the Rerum version of the disputation came from a notary's account.

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Cran. Yea, wryte.

MarginaliaD. Chadsey agayne disputeth.Ched. This place of Hilary is so darke, that you were compelled to falsifie it in your booke, because you could not draw it to confirme your purpose.

MarginaliaHillar. 8. De Trinitate.If Christ haue taken verely the flesh of our body, and the man that was verely borne of the virgine Mary is Christ, and also we receaue vnder the true mystery the flesh of his body, by meanes wherof we shall be one (for the father is in Christ, and Christ in vs) how shall that be called the vnitie of will, when the naturall propertie brought to passe by the Sacrament, is the Sacrament of vnitie? we must not speake in the sense of man or of the worlde in matters concernyng God: neither must we peruersely wrast any straunge or wicked sense out of the wholesome meanyng of the holy Scripture, through impudent and violent contention. Let vs read those thynges that are written, and let vs vnderstand those thynges that we read, and then we shall performe the duety of perfect fayth. For as touching that naturall and true beyng of Christ in vs, except we learne of hym, we speake foolishly and vngodly that thyng that we do speake. For he sayth: my flesh is meat in deede, and my bloud is drinke in deede. He that eateth my flesh & drinketh my bloud, abideth in me and I in him. As touchyng the verity of his flesh and bloud, there is left no place of doubt: for now, both by the testimony of the Lord, and also by our fayth, it is verely flesh, and verely bloud. MarginaliaThus farre was their talke in English.

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Here you haue falsified Hilary: for you haue set vero sub mysterio, for verè sub mysterio, we receiue truly vnder a mystery. Hilary thryse reporteth verè sub mysterio, and you interprete it twise verè sub Mysterio, but the thyrd tyme you haue vero for verè. MarginaliaSeing M. Cranmer hath twyse verè and but once vero, they had no cause to be greued, but that they were disposed to finde a knot in a rush.

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Cran. Assuredly, I am not gilty of any disceite herein. It may be that þe copy which I folowed, had Sub vero mysterio. i. vnder a true mystery: although touchyng the sense it differeth litle. God I call to wytnes, I haue alway hated falsifiyng, and if you had leysure and lust to heare false citations, I could recite vnto you 6. hūdreth.

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West. Here shalbe shewed you two copies of Hilary, the one Printed at Basile, the other at Paris.

Cran. I suppose that D. Smithes bookes hath vero.

West. Here is Doctour Smith: let hym aunswere for hym selfe.

Maister Smith, Maister Doctor: what say you for your selfe? speake if you know it.

☞ Here Doctour Smith, either for the truth in hys booke alledged, or els astonyed with Doct. Westons hasty callyng, stayd to aunswere. For he onely put of hys cap, and kept silence.

West. But your owne booke Printed by Wolffe your own Printer, hath vero.

Cran. That booke is takē from me, which easily might haue ended this controuersie. I am sure þe booke of Decrees hath vero.

MarginaliaHere D. Cole beginneth to carpe.Cole. Now you admitte the booke of Decrees, when it maketh for you.

Cran. Touchyng the sense of the matter, there is litle difference. The chaunge of one letter for an other is but a small matter.

West. No is? Pastor (as you know) signifieth a Byshop, and Pistor signifieth a Baker. But Pastor shalbe Pistor, a Byshop shalbe a Baker by this your chaunge of one letter, if verè and vero doo nothyng chaunge the sense.

Cran. Let it be so that in Pistor and Pastor one letter maketh some difference: Yet let Pistor be either a Baker or Maker of bread, ye see here the chaunge of a letter, and yet no great difference to be in the sense. 

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A rejoinder by Cranmer to a sally by Weston does not appear in the 1563 edition (See textual variant 52). It is not in the Rerum either and it may have been invented by Foxe to allow Cranmer the last word.

MarginaliaD. Yonge commeth in with his Socraticall interrogations.Yong. This disputation is taken in hand, that the truth might appeare. I perceiue I must go an other way to worke then I had thought. It is a commō saying: agaynst hym that denyeth principles we must not dispute. Therfore that we may agree of the principles, I demaūde whether there be any other body of Christ then hys instrumentall body.

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Cran. There is no naturall body of Christ, but his organicall body.

Yong. Agayne I demaunde, whether sense and reason ought to geue place to fayth.

Cran. They ought.

Yong. Thyrdly, whether Christ be true, in all hys wordes?

Cran. Yea, he is most true, and truth it selfe.

Yong. Fourthly, whether Christ at hys Supper minded to doe that which he spake or no?

Cran. Dicendo dixit, non fecit dicendo: sed fecit Discipulis Sacramentū. That is: In saying he spake, but in saying he made not, but made the Sacrament to his Disciples.

MarginaliaD. Yonges sophisticall interrogatoryes.Yong. Aunswere accordyng to the truth: whether did Christ that as God and man, which he spake, when he sayd: This is my body?

Cran. This is a Sophisticall cauillation: go playnly to worke. There is some disceit in these questiōs. You seeke subtelnes: leaue your crafty fetches.

Yong. I demaund whether Christ by these wordes wrought any thyng or no?

Cran. He did institute the Sacrament.

Yong. But aunswere: whether dyd hee worke any thyng?

Cran. He dyd worke in institutyng the Sacrament.

Yong. Now I haue you: for MarginaliaThys Syllogism speaking of a figure, hath no perfect forme nor figure.before you sayd it was a figuratiue speach.

But a figure worketh nothyng:

Ergo, it is not a figuratiue speach. A lyer ought to haue a good memorie.

Cran. I vnderstode your Sophistry before. You by workyng vnderstand conuertyng into the body of Christ: but Christ wrought the Sacrament, not in conuertyng but in institutyng.

Yong. Wo be to them that make Christ a deceiuer. Dyd he worke any other thyng thē he spake, or the self same thyng?

Cran. He wrought the Sacrament, & by these wordes he signified the effect.

Fes-Yong. A figuratiue speach is no workyng thyng.
ti-But the speach of Christ is workyng:
no.Ergo,it is not figuratiue.

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