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1665 [1627]

Queene Mary. Disputation of M. Latymer at Oxford.

Marginalia1554. Aprill.West. How say you to the sacrifice for the dead?

Lat. I say that it needeth not, or it booteth not.

West. MarginaliaAugust. Encherid. cap. 110.Augustine in his Encheridion the. 110. chap. sayth: Non est negandum defunctorum animos pitate suorum viuentium releuari, quum pro illis sacrificium Mediatoris offertur. That is: We must not deny, that the soules of the dead are relieued by the deuotion of their friends which are liuing, when the sacrifice of the Mediator is offered for them. Where he proueth the verity of Christes body, and praying for the dead. MarginaliaAugust. falsly belyed to say Masse for hys mother.And it is said that the same Austine said Masse for his mother.

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Lat. But that Masse was not lyke yours, which thing doth manifestly appeare in hys writinges which are agaynst it in euery place. And Augustine is a reasonable mā, he requireth to be beleued no further, then he bringeth scripture for his proofe, & agreeth with gods word.

West. In the same place he proueth a propitiatory sacrifice, and that vpon an aultar, and no Oyster bourd. MarginaliaThe blasphemous mouth of Weston calling the Lordes table an Oyster bourd.

Lat. It is the Lordes table, and no Oyster bourd. It may bee called an aultar, and so the Doctors call it in many places: but there is no propitiatory sacrifice, but onely Christ. The Doctors might be deceiued in some poyntes, though not in all things. * Marginalia* Doctores legendi sunt cum venia. I beleue them whē they say well.

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Cole. Is it not a shame for an old man to lye? You say, you are of the old fathers faith where they say wel, and yet ye are not.

Lat. I am of theyr fayth, when they say well. I referre my selfe to my lord of Cāterburies boke wholy herein. 

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The text Latimer repeatedly cited as 'Cranmer's book' was Thomas Cranmer, A defence of the true and catholike doctrine of the sacrament of the body and bloud of Christ (STC 6000-6002).

Smith. Then you are not of Chrysostomes fayth, nor of S. Augustines fayth.

Lat. I haue sayd, when they sayd well & bryng Scripture for them, I am of their fayth, and further Augustine requireth not to be beleued.

West. Origen. Hom. 13. vpon Leuitic.

Lat. I haue but one word to say: Panis Sacramētalis, the Sacramentall bread, is called a Propitiation, because it is a Sacrament of the propitiation. What is your vocation?

West. My vocation is at this tyme to dispute, otherwise I am a Priest, and my vocation is to offer.

Lat. Where haue you that authoritie giuen you to offer?

West. Hoc facite: Do this: for Facite in that place is taken for Offerte, that is, offer you.

Lat. MarginaliaFacere, for sacrificare, with Doct. Weston.Is Facere, nothyng but Sacrificare, to sacrifice? why then no man must receyue the Sacrament but Priestes onely: for there may none offer but Priests.

Ergo, there may none receiue but Priestes.

West. Your Argument is to be denyed.

Lat. Did Christ then offer him self at his Supper?

Pye. MarginaliaIf Christ offred him self at the Supper,, & the next day he offered him self vpon the crosse, then was Christ twise offered.Yea, he offered him selfe for the whole word.

Lat. Then, if this word [facite] do ye, signifie sacrificate, sacrifice ye: it foloweth, (as I sayd) that none but Priestes onely ought to receiue the Sacrament, to whom it is onely lawfull to sacrifice: and where find you that, I pray you?

West. Forty yeare agone, whether could you haue gone to haue found your doctrine?

Lat. The more cause we haue to thanke God, that hath now sent the light into the world.

West. MarginaliaWeston falleth to rayling.The light? Nay, light and lewd preachers: for you could not tel what you might haue: Ye altered and chaūged so often your Communions and your Altars: and all for this one end, to spoyle & robbe the Church.

Lat. These thynges pertayne nothyng to me. I must not aunswere for other mens deedes, but onely for myne owne.

West. Well, Maister Latimer, this is our intent, to will you well, & to exhort you to come to your selfe, and remember that without Noes Arke there is no health. 

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Weston's phrase 'without Noes Arke, there is no health' (1563, p. 985; 1570, p. 1627; 1576, p. 1388; 1583, p. 1459) is a reference to the common medieval image of the church as Noah's ark. Weston is saying that there is no salvation outside the church. In fact, since Weston's remark was almost certainly made in Latin, 'health' is probably a misleading translation of 'salvus', which also means salvation.

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Remember what they haue bene that were the begynners of your doctrine: none but a few flying Apostataes, runnyng out of Germany for feare of the Fagot. Remember what they haue bene which haue set forth

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the same in this Realme: A sort of flyngbraynes and light heades, which were neuer constant in any one thyng, as it was to be seene in the turnyng of the Table, where lyke a sort of Apes, MarginaliaD. Westons Apes haue tailes. they could not tell which way to turne their tayles, looking one day West and an other day East, one that way, and an other this way. They will be lyke (they say) to the Apostles, they will haue no Churches. MarginaliaShameles railyng and blasphemous lyes of D. Weston sitting in Cathedra pestilentiæ. MarginaliaWho be these, or where be they M. Oblocutor, that will be like the Apostles? that will haue no churches? that be runnagates out of Germany? that gette thē tankards? that make monethly faithes? that worship not Chrst in al hys Sacramētes? Speake truth man, and shame the deuil. If ye know any such, bring them forth: if ye know none, what aleth you thus to take on where ye haue no cause?A houell is good inough for them. They come to the Communion with no reuerence. They get them a Tankard, and one sayth, I drinke and I am thākefull: the more ioy of thee sayth an other. And in them was it true that Hillary sayth: Annuas & mēstruas de deo fides facimus, i. we make euery yeare and euery moneth a fayth. A runnagate Scot  

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The 'runnagate Scot' to whom Weston refers (in 1563, p. 985; 1570, p. 1627; 1576, p. 1388; 1583, p. 1459) is Alexander Alane (or Alesius) who translated portions of the first Edwardian prayer book.

did take away the adoration or worshippyng of Christ in þe Sacrament: by whose procuremēt that heresie was put into the last Cōmunion booke: so much preuailed that one mans authoritie at that tyme. You neuer agreed with the Tygurines or Germanes, or with the Church, or with your selfe. Your stubbornes commeth of a vayne glory which is to no purpose: for it will do you no good whē the Fagot is in your beard. And we see all by your owne Confession, how litle cause you haue to be stubborne: for your learnyng is in scoffers hold. The Queenes grace is mercifull, if ye will turne.

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Lat. You shall haue no hope in me to turne: I pray for the Queene dayly euē from the bottome of my hart, that she may turne from this Religion.

West. Here you all see the weakenes of heresie against the truth: he denyeth all truth, and all the old fathers.

HEre all good readers may see how this glorious Prolocutour triumpheth: 

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In the edition of 1563 Foxe added descriptions of the beginning of Latimer's disputation (1563, p. 978; 1570, p. 1622; 1576, p. 1384; 1583, p. 1454) and the conclusion (1563, p. 985; 1570, p. 1627; 1576, p. 1389; 1583, p. 1459); these almost certainly came from another eyewitness.

but whether he hath the victory or no, that I suppose they haue not yet, neither heard nor sene. And geue that he had þe victory, yet what great maruel was it, disputing as he did, nō sine suo Theseo:  
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Foxe added a classical tag - 'non sine suo Theseo' - to the conclusion of Latimer's disputation (1563 p. 985; 1570, p. 1627; 1576, p. 1388; 1583, p. 1459).

that is, not wthout his tipplyng cuppe standyng at hys elbowe all the tyme of his disputation, not without and priuie notyng and smylyng of them that beheld the matter, but especially at that tyme, when D. Rydley disputyng with one of the Opponents, the sayd Prolocutor tooke the cuppe and holdyng it in hys hand, sayd to the Opponent: MarginaliaVrge hoc, quoth Weston, with hys beerepotte. Vrge hoc, Vrge hoc: Nam hoc facit pro nobis. In which wordes as he moued no litle matter of laughter to the beholders therof: so I thought here also not to leaue the same vnmētioned, somewhat also to delight the Reader withall, after hys tedious wearines in readyng the story therof.

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¶ To the Reader. 
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In the 1570 edition, Foxe also added a concluding note to the formal disputations, addressed to the reader, emphasising how arbitrary, disorganised and unfair they were to Cranmer, Ridley and Latimer (see textual variant 64). He also printed, in full, a quotation from Cyprian which had been discussed during the debate (see textual variant 63).

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MarginaliaTo the Reader.And thus hast thou (louing reader) the whole action and stage of this Doctorly disputatiō shewed forth vnto thee agaynst these iij. worthy confessors and Martyrs of the Lord, wherein thou mayst behold the disordered vsage of the Vniuersitiemen, the vnmanerly maner of the Schole, the rude tumult of the multitude, þe fiercenes and interruption of the Doctours, the full pith and ground of all their Argumētes, the censure of the Iudges, the railyng language of the Oblocutor, with hys blast of triumph in the latter end, being both the actor, and moderator, & also iudge hym selfe. And what maruell then if the courage of this victorious conquerour, hauing þe law in his own handes to do & say what hym listed, would say for him selfe, Vicit veritas, although he sayd neuer a true word, nor made neuer a true conclusion almost in all that disputation?

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It folowed furthermore after disputation of these iij. dayes beyng ended, that M. Harpsfield the next day after, which was the xix. of Aprill, 

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Harpsfield's 'Forme'

In a departure from the earlier disputations, the beginning of this section consists of a dialogue between catholics, with Harpsfield being presented with various heretical opinions to refute. Thus, the points are all against Foxe: the moment that catholic truth is vindicated is seen as the end of the debate; Foxe wages a campaign from the margins, sniping at logic ('This aunswere doth not satisfie the argument for the conclusion speaketh of a bodyly absence, the aunswere speaketh of a spirituall remayning', '* The argument holdeth a proportione'), emphasising the unity of Christ (with its links to the singleness of his sacrifice) at the gloss '* What maner so euer ye giue to the body, if the substanciall body be here in deede, it cannot be auoyded, but eyther it must needes be false that S. Aug. sayth. Non est hic, or els Christ must haue 2. bodyes in 2. places together present here after one maner, & in heauē after an other maner' and the admission he sees in Harpsfield's speech at the gloss 'Note what Harpsfield here holdeth, that the body of Christ is not present in the Sacrament, but onely to them that receiue him worthely' of the importance of worthy receiving of the sacrament (which he later throws back at Harpsfield in another gloss: 'Harpsfield seemed a little before to note the contrary, where he sayd: that the flesh of Christ to them that receaue him not worthely is not present pag. 1401').

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Once Cranmer is introduced, the marginal glosses seek to convey the impression of arid scholastic confusion which is stronger here than previously. Perhaps this is because of the difference between structure and the occasion: earlier on, the sense of plucky martyrs set against growling interrogators predominated, but the yoking together of Harpsfield's 'forme' and the investigation of Cranmer makes it propitious to emphasise the confusion of the situation. Hence the portrayal of the examiners present as 'Rabines' ('The Rabines could not agree among themselues'), which both picks up on an earlier reapplication to catholics of a Judaizing insult of the protestants by Harpsfield ('* No, but those Iewes, sticking so much to the old custome and face of theyr Church, & not seeking for knowledge, by ignorance of the Scriptures were deceiued & so be you'), and links up with the mockery of the gloss 'The Doctours in a doubt'. These references are closely followed by jibes at the scholastic arguments of the doctors ('M. Ward in the misty cloudes of dunses quiddities' and 'Aristotle must helpe to tell vs how Christ is in the Sacrament'). Although glosses to the earlier disputations emphasise the figurative, tropical aspects of scripture and thus provide an implicit critique of pursuing a scholastic path of enquiry, this is the strongest explicit criticism, and can be seen as part of a shift in the focus of Foxe's attack. It also perhaps helps to defend Foxe's subjects against the charge of doctrinal variety within their ranks. Foxe had given an energetic defence of Luther during Latimer's disputation: the associations between the singleness of Christ's sacrifice and the singleness of the Christian truth adhered to by the martyrs relied upon the unity of the martyrs' doctrine. For mistakes/inaccuracies across editions, see the glosses 'Aprill. 19' and 'Aprill. 1. The iudgement of M. Harpsfield for the best way to vnderstād the Scriptures' (1576 and 1583), 'Aprill. 19' (1570), 'Harpsfield seemed a little before to note the contrary, where he sayd: that the flesh of Christ to them that receaue him not worthely is not present pag. 1401' (1576 and 1583) and 'Harpsfield seemed a litle before to note the contrary, where he sayd: that the flesh of Christ to them that receaue hym not worthely, is not present. pag. 1628' (1570).

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MarginaliaAprill. 19.should dispute for his forme, to be made Doctour. To the which disputation the Archbyshop of Cant. was brought forth & permitted among the rest to vtter an Argument or ij. in defense of hys cause. As in sequele hereof may appeare.

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¶ Disputation of Maister Harpsfield Bacheler of Diuinitie, aunsweryng for hys forme to be made Doctour. 
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Block 21: John Harpsfield's doctorial disputation

Following the formal disputations, Cranmer was invited to participate in the disputations held as part of John Harpsfield's receiving his D.D. Foxe included this disputation for two reasons: firstly, the debate was on the eucharist and, secondly, Cranmer did much better in it than he had done in his formal disputation.

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As with Latimer's disputation, Foxe's version of this disputation remained essentially unchanged from the Rerum to the 1583 edition. In this case, however, Foxe seems to have been relying solely on notes taken by an eyewitness to the debate. (Passages in the text indicating that it was based on notes from an eyewitness are 'wherunto maister Ward ... as it is thought he spake them' (1563, p. 988; 1570, p. 1629; 1576, p. 1390; 1583, p. 1461)). The comments, such as the claim that Ward based his argument on Duns Scotus but not on Scripture (1563, p. 988; 1570, p. 1629; 1576, p. 1390; 1583, p. 1461), indicate that this note-taker was protestant in sympathy. (This is also likely because these notes reached Foxe during his exile). The Rerum account of the disputation (Rerum, pp. 997 [recte 697]-704) was translated accurately in 1563, pp. 986-991.

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¶ Harpsfield.
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