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1397 [1372]

Q. Mary. Disputation of Doct. Ridley Bishop of London at Oxford.

MarginaliaAn. 1554. Aprill.thoritie to make propitiatory sacrifice for the quicke and the dead: and how it may bee proued that this authority was cōmitted of God to any man, but to Christ alone.

Marginalia3. Doubt in the word sacrificing.It is lykewise doubted, after what order the sacrifising Priest shall be, whether after the order of Aaron, or els after the order of Melchisedech. For as farre as I know, the holy scripture doth allow no moe.

MarginaliaD. Weston interrupteth hym in hys explicatiō.West. Let this be sufficient.

Rid. If wee lacke tyme at this present, there is tyme enough hereafter.

West. These are but euasions or starting holes, You consume the tyme in vayne.

Rid. I can not start far from you, I am captiue & bound.

West. Fall to it my Maisters.

Smith. That whiche you haue spoken may suffice at this present.

Rid. Let me alone I pray you, For I haue not much to say behynde.

West. Goe foreward.

Marginalia4. doubt in the worde really.Rid. Moereouer, there is ambiguitie in this word, really, whether it be to be taken as the Logicians terme it, transcēdenter, that is, most generally (and so it may signify anye maner of thing which belongeth to the body of Christ, by any meanes: after whiche sort we also graunt Christes body to be really in the the sacrament of the Lordes Supper, as in disputation, if occasion be geuen shall be declared) or whether it be taken to signifie the very same thing, hauing body lyfe, and soule, which was assumed and taken of the word of God, into the vnity of person. In which sense, syth the body of Christ is really in heauen, because of the true maner of his body, it may not be sayd to be here in the earth.

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Marginalia5. doubt in the word of formes of bread and wine.There is yet a further doutfulnes in these wordes, vnder the formes of bread and wyne, whether the formes be there taken to signifie the onely accidentall and outwarde shewes of bread and wyne: or there withall the substantiall natures therof, which are to bee seene by their qualities, and perceyued by exteriour sences.

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MarginaliaThe proposition erroneous after the sense of the Romishe church.Now the errour and falsenes of the proposition, after the sense of the Romish Church and scholmen, may hereby appeare, in that they affirme the bread to bee transubstantiated and chaunged into the fleshe, assumed of the word of God, & that (as they say) by the vertue of the word, MarginaliaTransubstantiation not founded in scripture.which they haue deuysed by a certayne number of wordes, and cannot be found in none of the Euangelistes, nor in Paule, and so they gather that Christes body is really conteyned in the sacrament of the altare. Which position is grounded vppon the foundation of transubstantiation: which foundation is monsterous, agaynst reason, and destroyeth the MarginaliaThe Analogie of the Sacramentes, is the similitude & likenes which they haue wyth the thinges they represent.Analogie or proportion of the sacramentes, and therfore this propositiō also, whiche is builded vppon thys rotten foundation, is false erroneous, and to bee counted as a detestable heresye of the Sacramentaries.

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West. We lose tyme.

Rid. You shall haue tyme enough.

West. Fall to reasonyng. You shall haue some other day for this matter.

Rid. I haue no more to say concernyng my explicatiō. If you wil geue me leaue and let me alone, I wyll but speake a word or two for my confirmation.

West. Go to: say on.

¶ The confirmation of the foresayd aunswer. MarginaliaConfirmatiō of his aunswere.

THere ought to be no doctrine established in þe church
of God, whiche dissenteth from the worde of God,
from the rule of fayth, and draweth with it many absurdities
that cannot be auoyded:
ti-But this doctrine of the fyrst proposition is such.
Ergo it ought not to be established & mayntayned in
the Church of God.

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The Maior or first part of my argument is plaine, and the Minor or second part is proued thus.

This doctrine maintaineth a real, corporall, and carnall presence of Christes flesh, assumed and taken of the worde to be in the Sacrament of the Lordes Supper, & that not by vertue and grace onely, but also by the whole essence & substance of the body and flesh of Christ:

MarginaliaThe reall presence of Christes body disagreeth from the scriptures.But such a presence disagreeth from Gods word, from the rule of fayth, and cannot but drawe with it many absurdities:

Ergo. the second part is true.

The first part of thys argument is manifest, and the second may yet further be confirmed thus.

MarginaliaD. Weston agayne interrupteth, D. Ridley.West. Thus you consume time, whiche might be better bestowed on other matters. Maister Opponent, I praye you to your argumentes.

Smith. I will here reason wyth you vpon Transubstan-

tiation, which you say is contrary to the rule and Analogy of fayth. The contrary wherof I proue by the Scriptures and the doctors. But before I enter argumentation with you. I demaund first whether in the 6. chap. of Iohn, there be any mention made of the sacrament or of the reall presence of Christ in the sacrament.

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Rid. It is agaynst reason that I shoulde bee impeached to prosecute that which I haue to speake in thys, assembly beinge not so longe but that it may be comprehended in few wordes.

West. Let him read on.

Marginalia7. inconueniences come of the reall presence.Rid. Fyrst of all, thys presence is contrary to many places of the holy Scripture.

Secondly, it varieth from the articles of the fayth.

Thirdly, it destroieth and taketh away the institution of the Lordes supper.

Fourthly, it maketh precious things commō to prophane & vngodly persons: for it casteth þt which is holy vnto dogs and pearles vnto swine.

Fiftly, it forceth men to maintain many monstruous miracles without necessity & authoritie of gods word.

Sixtly, it geueth occasion to the hereticks which erred concerning the two natures in Christ, to defend their heresies thereby.

Seuenthly, it falsifieth the sayinges of the godly Fathers: it falsifieth also the Catholicke Faith of the church, which the Apostles taught, the Martirs confirmed, and the faythfull (as one of the Fathers sayth) do retayne and keepe vntill this day. Wherfore the second part of myne argument is true.

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The probation of the antecedent or former part of this argument by the partes therof.

The 7. inconueniences declared by partes.
The first inconuenience.
The reall presence agaynst the scripture.
THis carnall presence is contrary to the word of God, as appeareth, Iohn. 16. I tell you the truth. It is profitable for you that I go away for if I go not away the comfortour shall not come vnto you. Actes. 3. Whom the heauens must receaue vntill the tyme of restoring of all things which god hath spoken. Math. 9. The children of the Bridegrome can not mourne so long as the Bridegroome is wyth them: But now is the tyme of mourning. Iohn. 16. But I will see you agayne & your hartes shall reioyce. Iohn. 14. I will come agayne and take you to my selfe. Math. 24. If they shall say vnto you, beholde, here is Christ or there is Christ, beleeue them not: for wheresoeuer the dead carcasse is, thether the Eagles will resort.

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Marginalia2. The reall presence agaynst the Articles of the fayth.It varyeth from the articles of the fayth, Hee ascended into Heauen, and sitteth on the right hande of God the Father. From whence (and not from any other place, sayeth Saint Augustine: (he shal come to iudge both the quicke and the dead.

Marginalia3. It destroyeth the institution of the Lordes supper.It destroyeth and taketh away the institution of the lordes supper, which was commaunded only to be vsed & contynued vntill the Lord hymselfe should come. If therefore he be now really present in the body of his flesh, then must the supper cease: For a remembrance is not of a thing present, but of a thing past and absent. And there is a differēce between remembraunce and presence, and (as one of the fathers sayeth) A figure is in vayne where the thing figured is presēt.

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Marginalia4. It prophaneth thinges holy and precious, and gendreth absurdities.It maketh precious thinges common to prophane and vngodly persons, and constrayneth men to confesse many absurdities. For it affirmeth that whoremongers and murtherers, yea and (as some of them hold opinion) the wicked and faythles, myse, rats, & dogges also may receiue the very reall and corporal body of the Lord, wherin the fulnes of the spirite of light and grace dwelleth: contrary to the manifest wordes of Christ in sixe places & sentences of the sixt chapter of S. Iohn.

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It confirmeth also and mainteineth that beastly kynde of crueltie of the MarginaliaAnthropophagi, are a kinde of brutishe people that feede of mās fleshe.Anthropophagi, that is, the deuourers of mans flesh: for it is a more cruel thyng to deuoure a quicke man, then to slay hym.

Pie. He requireth tyme to speake blasphemies. Leaue your blasphemies. 

Commentary  *  Close

Foxe corrected what was an excessively verbose translation made in the 1563 edition (1563, p. 959) of Ridley's exchange with Pye and Weston (see 1570, pp. 1608-09; 1576, p. 1372; 1583, p. 1443).

Ryd. I had litle thought to haue hade such reprochefull wordes at your handes.

West. All is quiet. Go to the argumentes M. Doctor.

Ryd. I haue not many moe thynges to say.

West. You vtter blasphemies with a most impudent face: leaue of (I say) and get you to the argument.

Marginalia5. It maintayneth mōstrous myracles without necessitie.It forceth men to mainteyne many monstrous myracles, without all necessity and authoritie of Gods woorde. For at the comming of this presence of the body and fleshe of Christ, they thrust away the substaunce of bread, and affirme that the accidents remayne without any subiect, and in the steede therof, they place Christes body without his qualities and true maner of a body. And if the Sacrament be reserued so long vntyl it mould, & wormes breede

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