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1416 [1391]

Q. Mary. Disputation of Doct. Harpesfield. The Archb. opposeth.

as one peece of meate to be rawe and sodden, can not be at one tyme together. But you would haue it otherwise, that Christ should be here & in heauen at one time: and shoulde haue modum quantatiuum, and not haue: whiche can not be, but by such argument as I haue shewed you.

West. But I say, Christes body was passible, & not passible at one * Marginalia* That remaineth yet vnproued. instant.

Seat. You may aske as well other questions, howe he is in heauen? whether he sit or stād? and whether he be there as he liued here?

Marginalia1554. Aprill. Cran. You your selfe, by putting a naturall presence, doo force me to question how he is there. Therfore, next I doo aske this question: Whether good and euyll men do eate the body in the sacrament?

Harps. MarginaliaHarpsfield seemed a litle before to note the contrary, where he sayd: that the flesh of Christ to them that receaue hym not worthely is not present, pag. 240.Yea, they doo so, euen as the sunne doth shine vpon kinges pallaces, and on dong heapes.

Cran. Then do I enquire how long Christe tarryeth in the eater.

Harps. These are curious questions, vnmeete to bee asked.

Cran. I haue taken them oute of your Schooles and Schoolemen, whiche you your selues doo moste vse: and there also doo I learne to aske how farre he goeth into the bodye.

Harps. We knowe that the bodye of Christe is receiued to nourishe the whole man concernyng both bodye and soule: Eousque progreditur corpus quousque * Marginalia
* Sed species nō progeditur vsq; ad animam:
Ergo, nec corpus Christi, & sic corpus Christi non pascit corpus & animam.

Cran. How long doth he abide in the body?

Seat. S. Augustine saith, our flesh goeth into his flesh. 

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Seton on S. Augustine

The following information is kindly supplied by D H Frost of St David's Catholic College, Cardiff. Citations are derived from his work in progress onSacrament an Alter (SA), a Tudor Catholic eucharistic catena, drawn from Foxe's 1576 account of the Oxford Disputations, translated into Cornish and appended to the Cornish translation of Bishop Bonner's Homilies, BL Add. MS 46397.

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not in SA

St Augustine saith 'our flesh goeth into his flesh'.

cf St Augustine of Hippo,In evangelium Joannis tractatus, 26, 18- PL 35, 1614, may have been the minds of the Disputants, although a more accurate passage can probably be found in due course. Migne has:

Ac per hoc qui non manet in Christo, et in quo non manet christus, procul dubio nec manducat [spiritualiter] carnem ejus, nec bibit ejus sanguinem, [licet carnaliter et visibiliter premat dentibus Sacramentum corporis et sanguinis Christi:] sed magis tantae rei Sacramentum ad judicium sibi manducat et bibit ...

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Consequently, he that dwelleth not in Christ, and in whom Christ dwelleth not, doubtless neither eateth his flesh [spiritually] nor drinketh his blood [although he may press the sacrament of the body and blood of Christ carnally and visibly with his teeth], but rather doth he eat and drink the sacrament of so great a thing to his own judgement.

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But after he is once receiued into the stomacke, it maketh no matter for vs to know how farre he doth pierce, or whither he is conueied.

Here master Tresham and one maister London answered, that Christ beyng geuē there vnder such forme and quātitie as pleased him, it was not to be enquired of his tariyng, or of his descending into the body.

Harps. You were woont to lay to our charge. that we added to the scripture: saying alwayes that we shoulde fetche the truth out of the scripture, and now you your selfe bring questions out of the Schoolemen, which you haue disallowed in vs.

Cran. I say, as I haue said alway, that I am constrayned to aske these questions, because of this carnal presence which you imagine: and yet I knowe right well, that these questions be answeared out of the Scriptures: As to my last question: Howe long he abideth in the body? &c. The scripture answereth plainely, that Christ doth so long dwell in his people, as they are his members. Wherupon I make this argument.

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MarginaliaD. Cranmers argument in the 2. figure and 2. mode. Ba-
They which eate the flesh of Christ, do dwel in him,
and he in them.
But the wicked doo not remaine in hym nor he in
Ergo, the wicked do not eate his flesh, nor drinke his

Harps. MarginaliaAunswer insufficiēt.I wyll aunswere vnto you as S. Augustine saith, not that how soeuer a man doth eate, he eateth the body: but he that eateth after a certaine maner.

Cran. I cannot tel what maner ye appoint: but I am sure that euyll men do not eate the fleshe and drinke the bloud of Christ, as Christ speaketh in the sixt of Iohn.

Harps. In the sixt of Iohn, some thinges are to be referred to the godly, and some to the vngodly.

Cran. What soeuer he dooth entreate there of eating, doth pertaine vnto good men.

Harps. If you do meane onely of the woord of eating, it is true: if concernyng the thing, it is not so: And if your meanyng be of that which is conteined vnder the worde of eating, it may be so taken, I graunt.

Cran. Nowe to the argument, He that eateth my fleshe, and drinketh my bloud, dwelleth in me, and I in hym. MarginaliaEuill men do not eate the body of Christ.Doth not this proue sufficiently that euyll men doo not eate that the good doo?

Tresh. You must adde, Qui manducat dignè: he that eateth worthely.

Cran. I speake of the same maner of eating, that Christ speaketh of.

West. Augustinus ad fratres in Eremo Sermon. 28. Est quidam manducandi modus. i. There is a certayne maner of eating. Augustine speaketh of two manners of eatyng: the one of them that eate worthyly, the other that eate vnworthyly.

Harps. Al thinges in the MarginaliaThe 6. chapt. of Iohn is to be referred partly to the Supper, partly to fayth after the papistessixt of Iohn are not to be referred to the sacrament, but to the receiuyng of Christe by fayth. The fathers do agree that there is not entreatie made of þe supper of the Lord, before they come vnto, Panis quem dabo vobis, caro mea est. &c.

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Cran. There is entreating of Manna both before & after.

Harps. I wyll apply an other answere. This argument hath a kind of poyson in it, which must be thus bittē away, that Manna and this sacrament be not both one. Manna hath not his efficacie of hym selfe, but of God.

Cran. MarginaliaComparison betwene eating of Manna, and eating the body of Christ.But they that did take Manna worthily, had fruit therby: and so by your assertion, he that doth eate the flesh of Christ worthily, hath his fruit by that:

Therfore the like doth folow of them both: and so there should be no difference betwene Manna and this sacramēt by your reason.

Harps. When it is said, that they which did eate Manna, are dead, it is to be vnderstand, that they did want the * vertue of Manna.

* If M. Harpsfield do meane of bodily life, 

Commentary  *  Close

Foxe could not resist inserting into the narrative a counter-argument of his own to rebut Harpsfield (textual variant 65).

they whiche eate the sacrament do die, as wel as they which dyd eate the Manna. If he meane of spirtual life, neither be they all dāned that did eate Manna, nor all saued that do eate the sacrament. Wherefore the truth is, that neither the eating of Manna bringeth death, nor the eating of the sacramēt bringeth saluation: but only the spiritual beleuyng vpon Christes bodyly Passion, which onely iustifieth both them & vs. And therefore as the effect is spiritual, whiche Christ speaketh of in ths chapter: so is the cause of that effect spiritual wherof he meaneth, which is our spiritual beleuing in him, and not our bodyly eating of him.

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Cran. They then which do eate either of them worthily, do liue.

Harps. They doo liue which do eate Manne worthyly: not by Manna, but by the power of God geuen by it. The other which do eate this Sacrament, do lyue by the same.

Cran. Christ did not entreate of þe cause, but þe effect which folowed: he doth not speake of the cause whereof the effecte proceedeth.

Harps. I do say the effectes are diuers, life & death, which do folow the worthy and the vnworthy eatyng therof.

Cran. Sithens you wyl needes haue an addition to it, we must vse both in Manna and in this sacrament, indifferētly, either worthily, or vnworthily.

Christ spake absolutely of Manna, and of the supper, so that after that absolute speakyng of the Supper, wicked men can in no wise eate the fleshe of Christ, and drinke his bloud.

Further MarginaliaAugust. in Ioan. tract. 26.Augustine vppon Iohn, Tractatu. 26. vppon these wordes, Qui manducat. &c. saith: There is no such respect in common meates, as in the Lordes body. For who that eateth other meates, hath styl hunger, and needeth to be satisfied dayly: but he that doth eate the flesh of Christ, and drinketh his bloud, doth liue for euer. But you know wicked men not to do so:

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Ergo, wicked men doo not receiue.

Harps. S. Augustine meaneth, that he who eateth Christes flesh. &c. after a certaine manner, shoulde liue for euer. Wicked men doo eate, but not after that maner.

Cran. Onely they whiche participate Christ, be of
the mystical body.
me- But the euyl men are not of the mystical body:
stres. Therfore they do not participate Christ.

West. MarginaliaDoct. Cranmer commended for his modestie.Your woonderfull gentle behaueour and modestie (good master D. Cranmer) is woorthy much commendation: and that I may not depriue you of your right & iuste deseruyng, I geue you most harty thankes in myne owne name, and in the name of al my brethren. At which saying al the doctors gently put of their cappes. Then M. Weston did oppose the Respondent in this wise.

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West. MarginaliaTertull. contra Martion.Tertullian doth call the sacrament the signe & figure of the Lord.

MarginaliaAugust. ad Dardan.S. Augustine ad Dardanum saith: Non dubitauit Dominus dicere, hoc est corpus meum, cum daret signum corporis. i. The Lord dyd not sticke to say, this is my body, whē he gaue a signe of his body.

Besides this he geueth rules howe to vnderstande the scriptures, saying: MarginaliaAugust. de doctrina Christiana.If the Scriptures seeme to commaunde some heynous thyng, then it is figuratiue, as by example: Manducare carnē et bibere sanguinem, est tropicus sermo. i. To eate the fleshe and drinke the bloud, is a tropicall speach.

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Harpsfielde. MarginaliaAunswere to Tertull.Tertullian dyd write in that place against Martion an heretique, who denyed Christ to haue a true bodye, and saide, he had onely a fantasticall body. He went about to shewe that we had Christ both in heauen and in earth: and though we haue the true bodye in the Sacrament, yet he woulde not goe about so to confounde hym, as to say, that Christ was truely in the sacrament: For that heretique would haue thereat rather marueiled, then beleued it. Therefore he shewed him, that it was the figure of

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