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Gilbert MounsonJohn Jewel
 
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Gilbert Mounson

Gilbert Mounson served together with John Jewel as one of the 'Protestant' notaries at the 1554 Oxford disputations; he was approved by Ridley for this role (1570, p. 1607; 1576, p. 1371; 1583, p. 1442; cf. 1563, p. 958, where Ridley's approval of Jewel and Mounson is described but they are not named).

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[NB: This may very well be the Gilbert Monson, MA, who was proctor of Christ Church College in 1553 and a canon of Lincoln (1548 - 1555); see Foster, sub 'Monson, Gilbert'].

 
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John Jewel

(1522 - 1571)

Bishop of Salisbury (1559 - 1571). [DNB]

John Jewel served, together with Gilbert Mounson, as one of two 'protestant' notaries at the 1554 Oxford disputations; he was approved by Ridley for this role (1570, p. 1607; 1576, p. 1371; 1583, p. 1442; cf. 1563, p. 958, where Ridley's approval of Jewel and Mounson is described but they are not named).

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Harding's attack on Jewel is referred to in Foxe's attack on Harding's defence of the persecution of Peritone Massey. 1570, p. 2131, 1576, p. 1852, 1583, p. 1946.

John Jewel was a participant in the Westminster disputation of 1559. 1563, p. 1717, 1583, p. 2119.

Foxe refers to his installation after Elizabeth's accession. 1583, p. 2128.

1466 [1442]

Queene Mary. Disputation of D. Ridley Bishop of London at Oxford.

MarginaliaAnno 1554. Aprill.for the dread of any daungers of thys world, either for any hope of commodity: but onely for the loue of the truthe, reuealed vnto me by the grace of God (as I am vndoubtedly perswaded) in his holy woorde, and in the reading of the auncient Fathers.

These things I do the rather recite at this present, because it may happen to some of you hereafter, as in times past it hath done to me: I meane, if ye thinke otherwyse of the matters propoūded in these propositions, then I now doe, God may open vnto you in time to come.

But how so euer it shall be, I will in fewe woordes do that which I thinke yee all looke I shoulde doe: that is, as plainely as I can, I will declare my iudgement heerein. Howbeit of this I woulde yee were not ignoraunt, MarginaliaB. Ridley submitteth himselfe to the Church of Christ.that I will not in deede wittingly and willingly speake in any poynt against Gods worde, or dissent in any one iote from the same, or from the rules of faith, and Christian religion: which rules that same most sacred word of god prescribeth to the Churche of Christe, whereunto I nowe and for euer submit my selfe, and all my doinges. And because the matter I haue now taken in hand is waightie, and yee all wel know how vnready I am to handle it accordingly, aswell for lacke of time, as also lacke of bookes: therefore heere I protest that I will publickly this daye require of you, that it may be lawfull for me concerning all mine aunsweares, explications, and confirmations, to adde or diminish what soeuer shall seeme hereafter more conuenient and mete for the purpose, through more sound iudgement, better deliberation, and more exact triall of euery particular thing. Hauing nowe by the way of Preface and protestation, spoken these fewe woordes, I will come to the answearinge of the propositions propounded vnto me, and so to the most brief explication and confirmation of mine answeres.

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West. Reuerend maister Doctour, concerning the lacke of bookes, there is no cause why you should complaine. What bookes soeuer you will name, ye shall haue them, MarginaliaThis promise was not kept.& as concerning the iudgement of your answeres to be had of your selfe wyth farther deliberation: it shall (I say) be lawfull for you vntill Sonday next to adde vnto them what you shall thinke good your selfe. My minde is that we shoulde vse short arguments, least we shuld make an infinite processe of the thing.

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Rid. There is an other thyng besides, whyche I woulde gladly obtaine at your handes. I perceiue that you haue wryters and Notaries here present. By all likelihoode our disputations shalbe published, I beseech you for gods sake let me haue libertie to speake my minde freely, & wythout interruption, not because I haue determined to protract þe time with a solemne Preface, but least it maye appeare that some be not satisfied. God wotte I am no Oratour, nor I haue not learned Rhetoricke to set colours on the matter.

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MarginaliaTwo Notaries permitted to Doct. Ridly.West. Among this whole company, it shall be permitted you to take two for your part.

Rid. I would chuse two, if there were any here wt whome I were acquainted.

West. Here are two whych M. Cranmer had yesterdaye. MarginaliaThese 2. Notaries were M. Iuell, sometime bishop of Salisbury and M. Gilbert Mounson. Take them if it please you.

Rid. I am contente wyth them: I truste they are honest men.

The first proposition.

MarginaliaThe first proposition.In the Sacrament of the aultare, by the vertue of Gods word spoken of the Priest, the naturall body of Christ borne of the virgine Marie, and his naturall bloude is really present vnder the formes of bread and wine.

The aunswere of N. Ridley.

MarginaliaD. Ridleys aunswere to the first proposition.In matters appertaining to God, we may not speake according to the sence of man: nor of the worlde: Therefore this proposition or cōclusion is framed after an other maner of phrase or kinde of speeche, then the Scripture vseth. MarginaliaThe proposition put foorth in darcke termes.Againe, it is very obscure and darke, by meanes of sundry wordes of doubtfull signification. And being taken in the sence whych the Schoolemen teache, and at thys time the church of Rome doth defend, it is false and erroneous, and plaine contrary to the doctrine which is according to godlinesse.

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The explication.

How farre the diuersitie and newnes of the phrase in all this first proposition, is from the phrase of the holy Scripture, and that in euery part almost, it is so plaine & euident to any that is but meanely exercised in holy wryte, that I neede not now (especially in this company of learned men) to spend any time therein, except the same shalbe required of me hereafter.

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MarginaliaThe first doubt.First, there is a doubtfull sense in the woordes [by the vertue of Gods word.] For it is doubtful what word of God this is: whether it be that which is red in the Euangelists, or in Paul, or any other. And if it be that which is in the Euangelists or in S. Paule, what that is. If it be in none of them, then how it may be knowen to be Gods worde, & of such vertue, þt it should be able to worke so great a matter.

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Marginalia2. Doubt in the word priest.Againe, there is a doubte in these woordes [of the Priest] whether no man may be called a Priest, but he whych hath authoritie to make propitiatorie sacrifice for the quicke and the deade: and howe it may be prooued that thys authoritie was committed of God to any man, but to Christ alone.

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Marginalia3. Doubt in the word sacrificing.It is likewise doubted, after what order the sacrificing Priest shall be, whether after the order of Aaron, or els after the order of Melchisedech. For as farre as I know, the holy scripture doth allow no moe.

MarginaliaD. Weston interrupteth him in his explication.West. Let thys be sufficient.

Rid. If we lacke time at this present, there is time enough heereafter.

West. These are but euasions or starting holes, You consume the time in vaine.

Rid. I can not start farre from you, I am captiue & bound.

West. Fall to it my maisters.

Smith. That whych you haue spoken, may suffice at thys present.

Rid. Let me alone I pray you, for I haue not much to say behinde.

West. Goe forwarde.

Marginalia4. Doubt in the word really.Rid. Moreouer, there is ambiguitie in thys word, really, whether it be to be taken as the Logicians terme it, transcendenter, that is, most generally (and so it may signifie any manner of thing which belongeth to the body of Christ, by any meanes: after which sort we also graunt Christes body to be really in the sacramente of the Lordes Supper, as in disputation, if occasion be geuen shall be declared) or whether it be taken to signifie the very same thing, hauing body, life and soule, which was assumed & taken of the worde of God, into the vnitie of persone. In which sence, sith the body of Christ is really in heauen, because of the true manner of his body, it may not be sayde to be here in the earth. Marginalia5. Doubt in the words of formes of bread and wine.There is yet a further doubtfulnesse in these words, vnder the formes of bread and wine, whether the formes be there taken to signifie the onely accidental and outward shewes of bread and wine: or there withall the substantial natures therof, which are to be seene by their qualities, and perceiued by exterior sences.

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MarginaliaThe proposition erroneous after the sense of the Romishe Church.Now the error and falsenes of the proposition, after the sense of the Romish church and scholemen, may hereby appeare, in that they affirm the bread to be transubstantiated and chāged into the flesh, assumed of the word of God, and that (as they say) by the vertue of the woorde, whych they haue deuised by a certaine number of woordes, and cannot be founde in any of the Euangelistes, or in Paule, MarginaliaTransubstantiation not founded in scripture. and so they gather that Christes bodye is reallye contained in the sacrament of the aultar. Which position is grounded vpon the foundation of transubstantiation: which foundation is monsterous against reason, and destroieth the MarginaliaThe Analogie of the sacramēt is the similitude and likenes whiche they haue with the thinges they represent. Analogie or proportion of the sacraments, and therfore this proposition also, which is builded vpon thys rotten foundation, is false erroneous, and to be counted as a detestable heresy of the Sacramentaries.

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West. We lose time.

Rid. You shall haue time inough. 

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Cattley/Pratt, VI, Addenda, ref. page 472, line 16 from the bottom

After "time enough" add, "Any day hereafter will serve to dispute on," from Ed. 1563, p. 959. The Latin in Ridley's Works (P. S.), p. 440, sanctions this.

West. Fall to reasoning. You shall haue some other day for this matter.

Rid. I haue no more to say concerning my explication. If you will geue me leaue and let me alone, I wil but speake a woord or two for my confirmation.

West. Go to: say on.

The confirmation of the foresaid answere.

MarginaliaConfirmation of his aunswere. MarginaliaArgument.Fes-
THere oughte no Doctrine to bee established in the
church of God, which discenteth from the word of
God, from the rule of faith, and draweth with it many ab-
surdities, that cannot be auoided.
ti-But this doctrine of the first proposition is such.
no.
Ergo, it ought not to be established and maintained in
the Church of God.

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The Maior or first part of my argument is plaine, and the Minor or second part is prooued thus.

This doctrine maintaineth a real, corporal, and carnal presence of Christes flesh, assumed and taken of the woorde to be in the Sacrament of the Lordes Supper, & that not by vertue & grace onely, but also by the whole essence and substance of the body and flesh of Christ.

MarginaliaThe reall presence of Christes body disagreeth from the scriptures.But such a presence disagreeth from Gods word, from the rule of faith, and cannot but drawe wyth it manye absurdities.

Ergo,
NNNn.iij.
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