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1472 [1448]

Queene Mary. Disputation of Doctor Ridley Bishop of London at Oxford.

those things which be vncertayne.

MarginaliaEgesipus Lib. 3 cap. 3.Smith. Wee haue Egesippus and Linus agaynste you, 

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Cattley/Pratt, VI, Appendix, ref. page 484, line 19 from the bottom

The good Doctor, who was master of Whittington College, afterwards gave some account of his exploits on this occasion, which it may be well to produce from a small volume, of course not commonly known. The writer was fellow of Clare Hall, Cambridge, and subsequently rector of Hackney. "This doctrine taught Doctor Smith. I heard him in Whittington college in London, in Queen Maries daies; he moved manie affections, and told the tale on this wise. Maisters, saith he, you are in a great terrour [? error] as concerning that blessed sacrament, and all your trust was in Cranmer, Ridley, and Latimer: as for Latimer, he said in open disputation in Oxford, that he had no learning in that matter, but out of Cranmer's book; besides this I disputed with Latimer twentie yeres agone; and then he had no learning. As for Cranmer he said that his learning came from Ridley. And as for Ridley, I disputed with him myself now at Oxford the other daie, and I proved my argument thus: - Ille, cui Christus obviavit Romæ, fuit Romæ:He whom Christ met at Rome, was at Rome. But Christ met Peter at Rome: ergo Peter was at Rome. By this argument I prove two things, and singular misteries of our faith. First that Peter was at Rome, against them that clatter that Peter was never at Rome, and Linus also who was Peter's successor at Rome. Secondlie, that if Peter met Christ bodilie, as Abidias reporteth, and which I am sure is true, or else such an ancient and holie father would never have written it: then consequently he may be as well bodily in the blessed sacrament, as he was met bodily. To this Ridley stood like a block, and, feeling himself convicted, answered nothing. Then said I, Cur non respondes hæretice, hæreticorum hæreticissime. Did I not handle him well? Then denied he the minor, which I proved thus: Christ met Peter going out of Rome, and said, good morrowe Peter, whither goest thou? Peter answered, good morrowe good man, whither goest thou? Then said Christ, I go to Rome to suffer. What? saith Peter, I trow, unless I take my markes amiss, you are Jesus Christ: good Lord, how do you? I am glad I have met you here. Then said he to Peter, go back and suffer, or else I must, et pro te et me. When Ridley had heard this my proof and Abdias authority, a doctor ancient and irrefragable [see vol. i. p. 101, note; and Gibbings's Reprint of Index Expurg. Vaticanus. Pref. xxiii. Dublin, 1837], he answered never a word. And thus I confuted Ridley in the audience of a thousand, that he had not one word to say: yet you say that Christ was never on earth since the ascension bodily: beleeve with me that he is under form of bread and wine. Let this argument of mine confound you, as it did Ridley your chiefe champion. [! !] Thus much doctor Smith, and more, in Whitengton colledge church in London, standing in the street called tower Royall, a little above the three cranes in the Vintree." (Chr. Carlile's Discourse of Peter's life, peregrination and death; London, imprinted by R. Ward, 1582, pp. 18, 19.) See Wood's Athenæ Oxon. vol. i. col. 336, for a notice of Carlile. (edit. Bliss.)

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whiche testifie that Christe appeared corporally on the earth to Peter after hys Ascension. Lib. 3. cap. 3. Peter ouercome with the requestes and mournings of the people, whiche desired him to get hym out of the Citie because of Nero his lying in waite for him, began without company to conuey hymselfe away from thence: and when he was come to the gate, he seeth Christ come to meete him, and worshipping him, he sayd: Maister, whether walke you? Christ aunswered, I am come againe to be crucifyed. Linus writing of the passion of Peter, MarginaliaLinus De Passione Petri. hath the selfesame story. Saint Ambrose hath the same likewise, and also Abdias, MarginaliaAmbrosius Abdias. scholer to the Apostles, which saw Christ before his ascending into heauen. With what face therefore dare you affirme it to be a thing vncertaine, which these men do manifestly witnes to haue bene done?

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Rid. I sayd before that þe Doctors in that matter did vary.

Smith. Do you thynke thys story is not certayne, beeyng approued by so auncient and probable authoritie?

Rid. I do so thinke, because I take and esteeme not theyr words, for the wordes of Scripture. And though I dyd graunt you that story to be certayne, yet it maketh not against me.

Smith. Such things as be certayne, and approued of them, you do reiect as things vncertayne.

MarginaliaThe credite of Linus story.Rid. The story of Linus is not of so greate authoritie: 

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Cattley/Pratt, VI, Appendix, ref. page 485, top

The bishop might have set aside this authority more decisively, as even many papal writers of eminence scruple not, in their better judgment, to reject the books attributed to this author. "In biblioth. vet. Patrum, et in Historia Christiana per Laurentium de la Barre, impress. Parisiis 1583, habentur duo libri, quorum prior habet titulum, 'B. Lini Rom. Pontif. de Passione B. Petri et Pauli ad Orientales Ecclesias liber primus:' alter hunc; 'De Passione B. Pauli ad Eccles. Orient. liber secundus.' Citantur in Legenda aurea, ut probetur, Petrum magnum instituisse certamen cum Simone Mago; a Sixto Senensi et Salmerone, ut fidem concilient Epistolis Pauli ad Senecam et Senecæ ad Paulum; et a Coccio, ut probet animas Sanctorum viventibus aliquando apparere, et ignota quædam revelare." Cook's "Censura quorundam Scriptorum (Helmestad. 1683)," p. 26, where the opinions of D'Espence, Baronius, Bellarmine, and others are quoted. The following is the most recent opinion: - "Sub nomine S. hujus Pontificis circumferuntur libri duo de passione divorum Petri et Pauli. At hos pariter libros S. Lino Papæ longe post, et per injuriam, suppositos esse, Bellarminus, Pagius, Dupinius et omnes hodie eruditi censent; quia nemo veterum de iis meminit, et multa omnino falsa, atque Apostolis illis indigna continent." Lumper Hist. Theologico-critica de vita, scriptis, SS. Patrum; tom. i. p. 468.

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although I am not ignorant that * Marginalia* This addition is taken out of the copye of B. Ridleys owne writing.Eusebius so writeth also in the story of the Church. And yet I accompt not these mens reports so sure as the Canonicall scriptures. Albeit if at any time he had to any man appeared heere on the earth after his Ascension, that doth not disprooue my saying. For I goe not about to tye Christ vp in fetters (as some do vntruly report of vs) but that he may be sene vpō earth according to his Diuine pleasure, whensoeuer it liketh him. But we affirme that it is contrary to the nature of his manhoode and the true maner of his body, that he should be together and at one instant both in heauen and earth, according to his corporall substaunce. And the perpetuall sitting at the right hand of the father, may (I graunt) be taken for the stabilitie of Christes kingdome, and his continuall or euerlasting equalitie with his father in the glory of heauen.

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Smith. Now where as you boast that your faith is the very fayth of the auncient Church: I will shew heere that is not so, but that it doth directly striue against the fayth of the old Fathers. I will bring in Chrysostome for this poynt. Hom. 2. ad populum Antiochenum. Tanquam maximam hæreditatem, Elisæus melotem suscepit. Etenim verè maxima fuit hæreditas, omni auro prætiosior: & erat duplex Helias ille: & erat sursum Helias, & deorsum Helias. Noui quòd iustum illum beatum putatis, & velletis quisque esse vt ille. Quid igitur, si vobis demonstrauero quid aliud, quod illo multo maius omnes sacris mysterijs imbuti recipimus. Helias quidem melotem discipulo reliquit: Filius autem dei ascendens suam nobis carnem dimisit. Sed Helias quidem exutus: Christus autem & nobis reliquit, & ipsam habens ascendit. MarginaliaChrysost. alleaged Hom. 2. ad populū Antioch.That is: Eliseus receiued the mantell, as a right great inheritaunce. For it was in deede a right excellent inheritaunce, and more precious then any gold beside. And the same Helias was a double Helias: He was both Helias aboue, and Helias beneath. I know well you thinke that iust man to be happy, and you would gladly be euery one of you as he is, what will you then say if I shall declare to you a certayne other thing, whych all we that are indued with these holy mysteries, do receiue much more then that? Helias in deede left his mantell to his scholer. But the sonne of God ascending, dyd leaue heere his flesh vnto vs. Helias left it putting off the same. But Christ both left it to vs, and ascended also to heauen hauing it with him.

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Rid. I graunt that Christ did both: that is, both tooke vp his fleshe wyth hym, ascending vp, and also did leaue the same behynde him with vs, but after a diuers manner and respect. For he tooke his flesh with him, after the true and corporall substance of his body and flesh: againe, he left the same in mysterie to the faithfull in the supper to be receiued after a spirituall communication and by grace. Neither is the same receiued in the Supper onely, but also at other times, by hearing the Gospell and by fayth. For, the [bread] which we breake, is the communication of the body of Christ: And generally: vnles ye eate the flesh of the sonne of man, and drinke his bloud, ye shall haue no life in you. MarginaliaHere at this aunswere great Cartfuls of taunting, spiteful and reprochfull wordes were cast vpon this good Bishop.

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Smith. Chrysostome in his booke de dignitate Sacerdotij. lib. 3. cap. 3. sayth: MarginaliaChrysost. De dignitate Sacerdotij. Lib. 3. cap. 3.O miraculum, O Dei beneuolentiam. Qui sursum sedet, tempore sacrificij, hominnm manibus continetur. Or, as other haue translated it: O miraculum, O Dei benignitatem, qui cum patre sursum sedet, in illo ipso tēpore articulo, omniū manibus pertractatur, ac seipse tradit volentibus ipsum accipere

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& complecti That is: O miracle, O good will of God. He that sitteth aboue, at the sacrifice time, is conteyned in the handes of men. Or els as other haue translated, thus: Oh myracle, Oh the gentlenes of God. Hee that sitteth aboue with the father, is handled with the handes of all men at the very same moment of time, and doth himselfe deliuer hymselfe to them that are desirous to take him and embrace him.

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Rid. He that sitteth there, is here present in mistery and by grace, and is holden of the godly, suche as communicate him, not onely sacramentally with the hand of the bodye, but much more holesomely with the hand of the hart, and by inward drinking is receaued: but by the sacramentall signification he is holden of all men.

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Seton Where is then the miracle if hee be onely present thorough his grace and in mistery onely?

MarginaliaThe miracle in the Sacrament wherein it consisteth.Rid. Yes, there is a miracle, good sir, Christ is not idle in his sacraments. Is not the miracle great (trow you) when bread, which is wont to susteine the body, becommeth food to the soule? He that vnderstandeth not that miracle, hee vnderstandeth not þe force of that misterye. God graūt we may euery one of vs vnderstād his truth, & obey the same.

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Smith. Chrisostome calleth it a miracle, that Christ sitteth at the right hand of God in heauen, and at the same tyme is held in the handes of men: not that he is handled wyth the handes of men onely in a misterye, and is with them through grace. Therfore while you deny that, you are altogether deceiued, and stray far from the truth.

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Harps. The former place of Chrisostome is not to bee let slip. Let me before I begin, aske this one question of you. Is it not a great matter that Elias left his cloke or mantell, and the gift of his prophecy to his Scholer?

Rid. Yes surely, it is a great matter.

Harps. Did not Elias then leaue great grace?

Rid. He did so.

Harps. But Christ left a farre greater grace then Helias: for he could not both leaue his cloke and take it with hym: Christ doth both in his flesh.

Marginalia
How Christ tooke vp his body, and left it with vs.
The phrase of Chrysost considered.
Rid. I am well content to graunt, that Christ lefte muche greater thinges to vs, then Helius to Eliseus, albeit he be sayde to haue left his double spirite with him: for that the strength and grace of the body of Christ, whiche Christ ascending vp, here left with vs, is the onely saluation & lyfe of all men which shalbe saued: which life Christ hath here left vnto vs, to be receaued by fayth through the hearyng of þe word, and the right administration of the sacraments. This vertue and grace Chrisostome, after the phrase and maner of Iohn the Euangelist, calleth Christes flesh.

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MarginaliaComparison betweene Elias mantell, and Christes fleshe. Elias tooke his mantell, & left neither mantel, nor Sacrament. of his mantell behind him. Christ tooke his fleshe and left a Sacramēt of his fleshe, which was more then Elias did: & yet the sayd Elias afterward cast down his mantell.Harps. But Christ performed a greater matter. He caryed vp and left behinde. You vnderstand not the comparison. The comparison is in this, that Elias left his mantel, and carryed it not with him, Christ left his flesh behind him & caryed it with him also.

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Rid. True it is, and I my selfe did affirme no lesse before. Now where you seeme to speake many thinges, in deede you bring no new thing at all. Let there be a comparison betweene grace and grace, & then Christ gaue the far greater grace, when he did inserte or graffe vs into his fleshe.

Harps If you wil geue me leaue, I will ask you this question. If Chrisostome would haue ment so, that Christ left his body in the Eucharist, what playner woordes thincke you, or more euident could he haue vsed then these?

Kid. These things be not of so great force as they beare a great shewe outwardly. Hee might also haue vsed grosser wordes if he had listed to haue vttered his minde so grosely: for he was an eloquent man. Now he speaketh after þe maner of other Doctors, which of misticall matters speake mistically, and of Sacramentes Sacramentally.

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Harps. The comparison lyeth in this: That which was impossible to Elias, is possible to Christ.

Rid. I graunt. It was possible to Christ, which was to þe other impossible. Helias left his cloke: Christ both left hys flesh and tooke it with him.

Harps. Helias left behinde him, & could not take with him: Christ both left behinde him, and also tooke with hym. Except you wil say: the comparison here made to be nothing.

MarginaliaHarpsfield aunswered.Rid. He tooke vp his flesh with him to heauen, and lefte here the communion of his flesh in earth.

West. You vnderstand in the first place his flesh for verye true flesh: and in the second place for grace, & communion of his flesh: and why do you not vnderstand it in þe second place also for his true fleshe? I will make it euident, howe blockish and grosse your answere is. MarginaliaQuam sit Stupida & crassa responsio tua.

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Rid. These be tauntes and reproches, not beseeming (as I thinke) the modesty of this Schole.

West. Elias left his cloke to his disciple: but the sonne of God, going vp to heauen, left his fleshe. But Elias certeinely left his cloke behinde, and Christ likewise his flesh,

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