Thematic Divisions in Book 12
1. Exhumations of Bucer and Phagius along with Peter Martyr's Wife2. Pole's Visitation Articles for Kent3. Ten Martyrs Burnt at Canterbury4. The 'Bloody Commission'5. Twenty-two Prisoners from Colchester6. Five Burnt at Smithfield7. Stephen Gratwick and others8. Edmund Allen and other martyrs9. Edmund Allen10. Alice Benden and other martyrs11. Examinations of Matthew Plaise12. Richard Woodman and nine other martyrs13. Ambrose14. Richard Lush15. The Martyrdom of Simon Miller and Elizabeth Cooper16. Rose Allin and nine other Colchester Martyrs17. John Thurston18. George Eagles19. Richard Crashfield20. Fryer and George Eagles' sister21. Joyce Lewes22. Rafe Allerton and others23. Agnes Bongeor and Margaret Thurston24. John Kurde25. John Noyes26. Cicelye Ormes27. Persecution at Lichfield28. Persecution at Chichester29. Thomas Spurdance30. Hallingdale, Sparrow and Gibson31. John Rough and Margaret Mearing32. Cuthbert Simson33. William Nicholl34. Seaman, Carman and Hudson35. Three at Colchester36. A Royal Proclamation37. Roger Holland and other Islington martyrs38. Stephen Cotton and other martyrs39. Scourging of Thomas Hinshaw40. Scourging of John Milles41. Richard Yeoman42. John Alcocke43. Thomas Benbridge44. Four at St Edmondsbury45. Alexander Gouch and Alice Driver46. Three at Bury47. A Poor Woman of Exeter48. The Final Five Martyrs49. John Hunt and Richard White50. John Fetty51. Nicholas Burton52. John Fronton53. Another Martyrdom in Spain54. Baker and Burgate55. Burges and Hoker56. The Scourged: Introduction57. Richard Wilmot and Thomas Fairfax58. Thomas Greene59. Bartlett Greene and Cotton60. Steven Cotton's Letter61. James Harris62. Robert Williams63. Bonner's Beating of Boys64. A Beggar of Salisbury65. Providences: Introduction66. The Miraculously Preserved67. William Living68. Edward Grew69. William Browne70. Elizabeth Young71. Elizabeth Lawson72. Christenmas and Wattes73. John Glover74. Dabney75. Alexander Wimshurst76. Bosom's wife77. Lady Knevet78. John Davis79. Mistress Roberts80. Anne Lacy81. Crosman's wife82. Congregation at Stoke in Suffolk83. Congregation of London84. Englishmen at Calais85. Edward Benet86. Jeffrey Hurst87. William Wood88. Simon Grinaeus89. The Duchess of Suffolk90. Thomas Horton 91. Thomas Sprat92. John Cornet93. Thomas Bryce94. Gertrude Crockhey95. William Mauldon96. Robert Horneby97. Mistress Sandes98. Thomas Rose99. Troubles of Sandes100. Complaint against the Ipswich Gospellers101. Tome 6 Life and Preservation of the Lady Elizabeth102. The Unprosperous Queen Mary103. Punishments of Persecutors104. Foreign Examples105. A Letter to Henry II of France106. The Death of Henry II and others107. Justice Nine-Holes108. John Whiteman109. Admonition to the Reader110. Hales' Oration111. The Westminster Conference112. Appendix notes113. Ridley's Treatise114. Back to the Appendix notes115. Thomas Hitton116. John Melvyn's Letter117. Alcocke's Epistles118. Cautions to the Reader119. Those Burnt at Bristol: extra material120. Priest's Wife of Exeter121. Snel122. Laremouth123. William Hunter's Letter124. Doctor Story125. The French Massacre
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2147 [2124]

Queene Mary. The disputation betweene the Papists and Protestants at Westminster.

here say what was then determined.

B. Yorke. Ye are to blame to stand in this issue, for there was a playne decreed order taken for you to intreat of the second Question. Wherefore leaue you your contention herein, and shew what ye haue to say in the second Question.

L> Keper. Go to now, begin my Lordes.

Linc. Couen. It is cōtrary to the order in disputatiōs that we should begin.

Chester. We haue the negatiue: the affirmatiue therefore they must begin.

Lich. Couen. They must first speake, what they can bring in agaynst vs, sith that we are the defending part.

Chester. So is the schole maner, and likewise the maner in Westminster hall is, that þt plaintifes part should speak first, and then the accused party to answere.

Lich. Couen. I pray you let the proposition be read, & then let vs see who hath the negatiue part, and so let the other begin.

L. Keper. The order was taken that ye should begin.

Lich. Couen. But then we should do agaynst the Schoole order.

L. Keper. My maisters, ye inforce much the schole orders. I wonder muche at it, sith diuers of those orders are ofte times taken for the exercise of youth, and ought to mainteine a fashion and many prescriptions, whiche we neede not here to recite, much lesse obserue. We are come hither to keepe the order of God, and to set forth his truth & herevnto we haue taken as good order as we might, which lieth not in me to chaunge.

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Carlile. We are of the catholicke church, and abide therein, and stand in the possessions of the truth, and therfore must they say what they haue to answere against vs, and so we to mainteine and defend our cause.

Lich. Couen. Yea, euen so must the matter be ordered.

Chester. When they bring any thing agaynst vs, it is sufficient for vs to deny it. Therfore must they begin.

Lich. And when they affirme any thing, and we say naye, the proofe belongeth to them, and so it behoueth them to shew first what they affirme, and for what cause and purpose.

L. Keper. Here resteth our purpose, & whole matter, whether you will begin, if they do not, sith it was determined ye should begin.

Lich. Couen. We heard of no such order.

L. Keper. No did? Yes, and in the first question ye begon willingly. How commeth it to passe that ye will not now do so?

Chester. Then had we the affirmation, which sith that our adueraries haue now, they should presently begin.

This the Protestantes denyed, saying that they in the first day had the negatiue, wherein they did not yet refuse to begin.

L. Keper. If you haue any thing to say, my Lordes, to the purpose, say on.

Lich. A particular sorte of men can neuer breake an Vniuersall Churche, which wee nowe mainteine: and as for these men, our Aduersary part, I neuer thought that they would haue done so much as haue named themselues to be of the catholicke Church, challenging the name as wel as we.

Protestantes. We doe so, and we are of the true Catholicke church, and maynteyne the verity therof.

Lincolne. Yet woulde ye ouerthrowe all Catholicke order.

Horne. I wonder that ye so much stand in who shoulde begin.

Lincolne. You count it requisite that we shoulde followe your orders, as we haue takē the question at your hands, in that sort as you haue assigned them.

Lich. Couen. Yea, euen so are we driuen to do now.

L. Keper. Nay, I iudge if ye marke the matter well, the questions are neither of their propounding them to you, nor of your deuise to them, but offred indifferently to you both.

Horne. In deed my Lordes of the Queenes most honourable Counsell, these questions or propositions were proposed vnto vs by your honors, and they then hauing the preheminence, chose to themselues the negatiue, & yet frely began first: now agayne why do they not the like.

Liechfield being angred that he shoulde so straightlye speake agaynst them, went quite from the matter, saying: My Lord keeper of the great seale, and you the rest of the Queenes most honorable Counsel, I hope that you all, & the Queenes Maiesty her selfe, are inclined to fauour the verity in all thinges, & the truth of the catholicke church, which we must, will, or can do no otherwise, but earnestly maynteyne to the vttermost of our power, and to thys

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purpose let vs now well way who are of the true Catholicke church, they or we.

L, Keeper. Tary, now you goe from the matter, and make questions of your owne.

Lichfield. Yet not straying from his digression, sayd thus: we must needes goe to worke, and trye that first, of what Church they be of. For there are many Churches in Germany. Mayster Horne, maister Horne, I pray you which of these Churches are you of?

Horne. I am of Christes catholicke Church.

L. Keeper. Ye ought not thus to runne into voluntary talk of your owne inuenting, nor to deuise newe questions of your owne appoyntment, and thereby enter into þt talke: ye ought not so to doe. But say on, if you haue anye thing to say in this matter.

Lich. Nay, we must first thus go to worke with them as I haue sayd, if that we will search a truth: howbeit of the truth we haue no doubt, for that we assuredly stande in it. These men come in, and they pretend to bee doubtfull. Therefore they shoulde first bring what they haue to impugne or withstand vs withall.

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Winc. Let them begin: so will we goe onward with our matter.

Chester. Otherwise, my Lordes, if they should not begin, but end the talke, then shoulde the verity on our sides bee not so well marked, for they should depart speaking last, cum applausu populi, 

Latin/Greek Translations  *  Close
Foxe text narrative, spoken by the Bishop of Chester.
Foxe text Latin

cum applausu populi.

Foxe text translation

with the reiosing of the people.

with the reioising triumph of the people.

Winch. Therefore I am resolued that they shall begin or that we say any thing.

Chester. I am sory my Lordes, that wee shoulde so longe stand in the matter, with your honours and make so many wordes, and so much adoe with you, whom we ought to obey: howbeit there is no indifferency if they begin not: and surely we thinke it meete, that they shoulde for theyr partes geue vs place.

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Lich. Yea, that they shoulde and ought to doe where anye indifferencie is vsed.

ælmer. We giue you the place (do we not?) and depriue you not of the preeminence, because you are Byshoppes: therefore I pray you begin.

The Byshop. A goodly geuing of place I assure you: yea marie ye gaue place, suche wordes they vsed, wyth more scoffes.

L. Keeper. If ye make this assembly gathered in vayne, and will not go to the matter, let vs rise and depart.

Winch. Contented, let vs be gone: for we will not in this poynt geue ouer.

I pray you my Lords, require not at our hands that we should be anye cause of hinderaunce or lett to our religion, or geue any such euil example to our posteritie, whiche we shoulde doe if we gaue ouer to them, whiche in no wise we may, or will do.

L. Keeper. Let vs then breake vp, if you bee thus minded. With these wordes the Bishoppes were strayght wayes rising. But then sayd the Lord keeper: let vs see whether euery one of you be thus minded. How say you my Lorde of Winchester, will you not begin to read your writing?

Winch. No surely. I am full determined, and fully at a poynt therein, how soeuer my brethren do.

Then the Lord Keeper asked how the Bishoppe was called who sate next to Winchester in order. It was the Bishoppe of Exceter, who being enquired his mind herein, answered that he was none of thē. Thē the Lord Keeper asked the other in order, and first Lincolne, who sayde he was of the same minde that Winchester was of: & likewise answered Lichfield Couen. Cole and Chedsy. Then Chester being asked his sentence, sayd: My Lordes, I say not that I will not read it, if yee commaund vs: but wee ought not to do it: yet I desire your honors not so to take it, as though I would not haue read it. I meane not so.

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L. Keeper. How say you to it: my Lord of Carlile?

Carlile. If they should not read theyrs this daye, so that our writing may be last read, so am I contented that ours shall be first read.

L. Keeper. So would ye make orders your selues, and appoynt that we should spend one day in hearing you.

Abbot. Then þe Abbot of Westminst. was asked his mind who sayd: and if it please your honours, I iudge that my Lordes here stay most on this poynt, that they feare when they shall begin first, and the other aunswere thereupon, there shall be no time geuen to them to speake, whiche my Lord misliketh.

L. Keeper. Howe can it otherwise be in a talke appoynted in such assembly and audience: thinke you that there can be continually aunswering one another? when shoulde it after that sort haue an end?

Lich. Couen. It must bee so in a disputation to seeke out

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